a theory on the Stride murder

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello Steven....

Diemschutz disturbed Jack before he was able to mutilate does not hold water.

To me....it doesn't have to be Diemschutz.....also....I think at least one person would have got their times out...so could have been Diemshutz but earlier than 1am.

Anyway, for what they are worth, these are my views on the candidacy of Elizabeth Stride as a genuine JTR victim, although I must admit, the possibility of a different knike having been used is a serious stumbling block.

I was reading a thread the other night Steven.....which discussed this issue and I wasn't convinced it was a different knife.

But let's assume it was....

For JTR to rigidly stick to the same knife....he would have had to have had either....an emotional attachment to that knife.....an inability to carry more than one knife......only owned one knife....felt comfortable using only one particular knife.....it's not beyond the realms of possibility that none of the aforementioned afflicted JTR.....

And....I wonder.....assuming he was disturbed....did he have time to clean his knife?......was it still blood stained?....would this have influenced choosing a second knife?

[Fleetwood Mac]

I'm not Adam, but I can tell you that Pipeman was never identified. This idea was first suggested in Paul Begg's 'The Facts', and would be a workable idea if not for the fact that in the memos circulated following Swanson's Oct. 19th report (which gave us his Schwartz account), Pipeman was repeatedly called the 'alleged accomplice'. Had he been identified, such speculation as to his complicity would not have been necessary.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom....

Less than satisfactory choice of word on my part....worse than that I didn't remotely say that which I meant....

I meant someone else saw that same person in Berner Street....though his ID wasn't confirmed...any truth in this?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Mac, there doesn't appear to have been another witness, although I did create a thread some time ago about a press report in which William Wess of the Berner Street Club is interviewed and he alludes to the Schwartz story, proving that he was aware about it early on (prior to this I had suggested that Wess might have been Schwartz's interpeter). Somehow, somewhere, the account got garbled and was reported as someone had chased the supposed murderer. Obviously, if this were the case, then Schwartz would be the supposed murderer as Pipeman chased him. But I think the reporter screwed it up and what Wess said was that the supposed murderer had chased a man.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Steven Russell]

Hello Steven....



To me....it doesn't have to be Diemschutz.....also....I think at least one person would have got their times out...so could have been Diemshutz but earlier than 1am.



I was reading a thread the other night Steven.....which discussed this issue and I wasn't convinced it was a different knife.

But let's assume it was....

For JTR to rigidly stick to the same knife....he would have had to have had either....an emotional attachment to that knife.....an inability to carry more than one knife......only owned one knife....felt comfortable using only one particular knife.....it's not beyond the realms of possibility that none of the aforementioned afflicted JTR.....

And....I wonder.....assuming he was disturbed....did he have time to clean his knife?......was it still blood stained?....would this have influenced choosing a second knife?

I can see why a deep wound cannot be inflicted with a small knife but why not vice versa? You could scratch someone with a sword.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi Mac, there doesn't appear to have been another witness, although I did create a thread some time ago about a press report in which William Wess of the Berner Street Club is interviewed and he alludes to the Schwartz story, proving that he was aware about it early on (prior to this I had suggested that Wess might have been Schwartz's interpeter). Somehow, somewhere, the account got garbled and was reported as someone had chased the supposed murderer. Obviously, if this were the case, then Schwartz would be the supposed murderer as Pipeman chased him. But I think the reporter screwed it up and what Wess said was that the supposed murderer had chased a man.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hmmmm.....seems to rest on Schwartz then Tom......is there one particular aspect of his statement that makes him believable to you?

Seems strange that the police would use someone unknown to them and someone who was near the crime scence at the time of the murder as an intrepretor....surely they wouldn't have been so imcompetent?

[Tom_Wescott]

Anyway, for what they are worth, these are my views on the candidacy of Elizabeth Stride as a genuine JTR victim, although I must admit, the possibility of a different knike having been used is a serious stumbling block.

The Stride case does not suggest a different knife any more than any of the other murders. There was one cut and not stabs, therefore it's impossible to gage the length of the blade. All we know is that it was sharp and got the job done in one quick slice. A practiced, calm hand killing a middle-aged prostitute in a dark place. I cannot say she was a victim of Jack the Ripper, but certainly the balance of probabilities suggests she was.

so could have been Diemshutz but earlier than 1am

Historically speaking, we have to consider his time fixed because he noticed the time on the corner clock a mere minute or two before discovering the body, and the police could have verified the accuracy of the clock. That doesn't make anything definite, but historically speaking he's more accurate in his timing than anyone else with the possible exception of Dr. Blackwell, who had a watch.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hmmmm.....seems to rest on Schwartz then Tom......is there one particular aspect of his statement that makes him believable to you?

I don't necessarily believe him, but because I can't prove he wasn't honest, we more or less are stuck with believing him.

Seems strange that the police would use someone unknown to them and someone who was near the crime scence at the time of the murder as an intrepretor....surely they wouldn't have been so imcompetent?

Leon Goldstein, of black bag fame, couldn't speak English and was a member of the Berner Street club. William Wess accompanied him to Leman Street Police Station where he translated for him. I suspect, but cannot yet prove, that Schwartz was affiliated with the Berner Street club, and indeed had been living there the day before the murder. We know that he took a friend with him to that same station who would have been necessary for at least translating to the police why Schwartz needed to speak with them. For the actual interrogation it's possible (but not certain) that they would have used their own interpreter.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fleetwood Mac]

Historically speaking, we have to consider his time fixed because he noticed the time on the corner clock a mere minute or two before discovering the body, and the police could have verified the accuracy of the clock. That doesn't make anything definite, but historically speaking he's more accurate in his timing than anyone else with the possible exception of Dr. Blackwell, who had a watch.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Yeah.....I'll go with that....the idea that the clock time was out.....well it's unlikely that it was out only on that particular night......and were it regularly out then he would have known and adjusted his time accordingly.

[Steven Russell]

Tom and Fleetwood

Dear Tom,
I am glad that you agree that shallower wounds do not necessarily mean a shorter knife.

Dear Fleetwood,
I'm afraid in post 31 you quoted me (post 20) out of context, giving the reader completely the wrong impression about my amateurish views. I am sure that this was a genuine mistake on your part but thought I should point it out.

Regards,

Steve.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I don't necessarily believe him, but because I can't prove he wasn't honest, we more or less are stuck with believing him.

Yeah...though were he a member of the club....does it follow that he concealed that and so he wasn't necessarily telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

Leon Goldstein, of black bag fame, couldn't speak English and was a member of the Berner Street club. William Wess accompanied him to Leman Street Police Station where he translated for him. I suspect, but cannot yet prove, that Schwartz was affiliated with the Berner Street club, and indeed had been living there the day before the murder. We know that he took a friend with him to that same station who would have been necessary for at least translating to the police why Schwartz needed to speak with them. For the actual interrogation it's possible (but not certain) that they would have used their own interpreter.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Inconclusive then......I'd be surprised if it wasn't there own....and in line with the principle of being 'stuck with it'....then surely we must accept the English version?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Dear Tom,
I am glad that you agree that shallower wounds do not necessarily mean a shorter knife.

Dear Fleetwood,
I'm afraid in post 31 you quoted me (post 20) out of context, giving the reader completely the wrong impression about my amateurish views. I am sure that this was a genuine mistake on your part but thought I should point it out.

Regards,

Steve.

Just had a look at post 31 and can't see it.....but never mind....

And as for amateurish views.....well....I'm not exactly transcending the boundaries of earthly detective work! so the last think I'd do is suggest someone knows less than me......

[Steven Russell]

In post 20 I said, "I don't see any reason why... does not hold water". No sarcasm intended, Fleetwood.

Best,

Steve.

[Fleetwood Mac]

In post 20 I said, "I don't see any reason why... does not hold water". No sarcasm intended, Fleetwood.

Best,

Steve.

Fair enough Steve.....no problems.

[Steven Russell]

Fleetwood

Cheers,

Steve.

[Adam Went]

Hey Fleetwood,

To answer your earlier question about Pipeman, the story that he had been picked up by the police comes from the report in The Star on October 1, 1888, which carried Israel Schwartz's statement to them. To quote from the article.....

The police have arrested one man answering the description the Hungarian furnishes. The prisoner has not been charged, but is held for inquiries to be made. The truth of the man's statement is not wholly accepted.

I'm not sure if there were other papers which ran the same story, but this is likely where it first appeared. Unfortunately, it doesn't specifically tell us whether it was BS Man or Pipeman, or perhaps some other mysterious bloke hanging around that we don't know about, so we can't say for sure.....most likely though, it's more mis-reporting by the press, as there doesn't seem to be anything in police records or statements about the arrest of this man.

Either that or the police did pick up someone matching the description (at 5'11, Pipeman was rather tall by 1888 standards), and the records have been lost....but either way, nothing ever came of it....

Cheers,
Adam.