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Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Dr. John Watson View Post
    As an alternative, he could have heard Watkins footsteps and had time to hoist himself over the nearby gate before Watkins discovered Eddowes' body, then clambered back over the fence, out the exit and across Aldgate before Morris blew his whistle alerting the others. We'll never know, of course, but still fun to ponder!
    Contemporary sketches show the fence and gate as having a row of spikes along the top, so very unlikely to be climbable stealthily.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

      But then the police officers timings, and their movement (if correct) suggest that they were the killer and Eddowes, because there would have been no other time or opportunity for the killer and Eddowes to have gone into the square, and for the killer to have done all that he is supposed to have done. The timings as they are known struggle with all of that.

      www.trevormarriott.co.uk
      I think we've thrashed the timings to death Trevor. The whole encounter would have to have been rehearsed to fit it into the narrow window of time available, if the Duke St. pair were Eddowes & her killer.
      Regards, Jon S.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

        I think we've thrashed the timings to death Trevor. The whole encounter would have to have been rehearsed to fit it into the narrow window of time available, if the Duke St. pair were Eddowes & her killer.
        Hi Wickerman,

        I don't know if another couple really changes how tight the timings were. The couple on Duke Street/Church Passage are spotted within minutes of PC Watkins stated last time of patrolling Mitre Square. No other couple could enter Mitre Square prior to that, and there's very little time for the Duke Street couple to have gone in earlier without being spotted by PC Watkins. They are, however, ideally situated to observe him on his patrol, wait a minute or two for him to clear the area, (get spotted by Lawende et company during that period), and then enter and cross over to the darkest corner. If anything, their position explains how the maximum amount of time can be allotted to them. The doctor's estimated 5 minutes for the murder, add a couple for the waiting time I mentioned and another for safe keeping for their travel to the corner, and we're still only talking about 8-10 minutes of PC Watkins 14 minute patrol required. Add to that that two events, PC Harvey's patrol of Church Passage and Morris opening the door during his cleaning, both occur somewhere between 2 and 4 minutes prior to PC Watkin's arrival, and with the above description, both of those happen close to the time required to complete things, and either one of those would trigger a flight response before PC Watkins returns if JtR hasn't fled already. Yes, it's tight and it might sound a bit too exacting, but if we have the right idea it should sound exacting, and we know it had to be tight. Whether it was rehearsed or not is unknowable (speaks to JtR's mental thoughts and/or activities for which we have no information), but I would not be surprised if he hadn't spent a great deal of time re-living his previous murders.

        I'm not saying it's 100% that it has to be Eddowes and JtR in Duke Street, but no other couple (the reports from St. James's Place are just that people passed through sometime before or around 1:30, but nothing about a couple specifically, or about going into Mitre Square, and of course there are no observations from Mitre Street (but as PC Watkin's was patrolling there, he would have spotted them, or they would have arrived too late and there wouldn't have been the time to complete the murder and escape).

        We also have a tentative identification of Eddowes by both Lawende and Levey, albeit by her clothing.

        Basically, from what I can see, the evidence all points to that being a legit sighting and it would take something evidential to discount it as such, though that doesn't mean it should also be treated with some caution. But suggesting caution is just saying there is a less probable alternative that should not be overlooked if, and when, new evidence comes to light. That new evidence could have the potential to change our estimates of the likelihoods because that's what evidence does.

        - Jeff

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        • #94
          THE EVENING NEWS
          MONDAY, OCTOBER 1, 1888


          Running from the north-east corner of the square is a covered passage leading to St. James's-place, otherwise known as the "Orange Market," where three men of the Metropolitan Fire Brigade are always on duty at a fire escape station until daybreak.

          St James passage was a risky escape, imo.

          Also, where was this man? Or was this Blenkinsop?



          I've read a version of this clip many times over, but just yesterday noticed (in this clip, unlike other reports of the same I've read) he includes himself in finding the body. That's either a press mistake or a freudian slip.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by jerryd View Post
            THE EVENING NEWS
            MONDAY, OCTOBER 1, 1888


            Running from the north-east corner of the square is a covered passage leading to St. James's-place, otherwise known as the "Orange Market," where three men of the Metropolitan Fire Brigade are always on duty at a fire escape station until daybreak.

            St James passage was a risky escape, imo.

            Also, where was this man? Or was this Blenkinsop?



            I've read a version of this clip many times over, but just yesterday noticed (in this clip, unlike other reports of the same I've read) he includes himself in finding the body. That's either a press mistake or a freudian slip.
            A journalist's slip, surely?
            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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            • #96
              Originally posted by jerryd View Post
              THE EVENING NEWS
              MONDAY, OCTOBER 1, 1888


              Running from the north-east corner of the square is a covered passage leading to St. James's-place, otherwise known as the "Orange Market," where three men of the Metropolitan Fire Brigade are always on duty at a fire escape station until daybreak.

              St James passage was a risky escape, imo.

              Also, where was this man? Or was this Blenkinsop?



              I've read a version of this clip many times over, but just yesterday noticed (in this clip, unlike other reports of the same I've read) he includes himself in finding the body. That's either a press mistake or a freudian slip.
              Hi Jerry D,

              Yes, the firemen report seeing nobody come through from Mtire Square. But, being on watch for them would mean being "on duty" in case they were called to a fire. I don't think it means watching the square as per a security guard. However, their indication that nobody went through does suggest the Mitre Street exit is the more probable, though probably not enough in and of itself to rule out St. James's Place entirely.

              - Jeff

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              • #97
                The firestation was being converted from a wooden to a brick building at the time. Hence Blenkingsopps presence.

                Monty
                Monty

                https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...t/evilgrin.gif

                Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

                http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                  Also, where was this man?
                  Presumably he was shovelling up horse-dung in a nearby street.

                  I've read a version of this clip many times over, but just yesterday noticed (in this clip, unlike other reports of the same I've read) he includes himself in finding the body. That's either a press mistake or a freudian slip.
                  Good spot. I seem to recall there's a reference somewhere (I thought it was Watkins but can't seem to find it) suggesting that "private citizens" were sent for help, or for the doctor. If so, they must have been very early on the scene. Perhaps he was one of them?

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                    The attached reconstruction of Church Passage gives us an idea of what light was being emitted from the two gas lamps, and I again suggest that the killer would have seen and heard Harvey, and made good his escape long before Harvey got to the entrance to the square. Harvey is coming down the passage the light from Kearley and Tonges gas lamp would be right in his eyes. he could not make any adjustment until after he passed by the light and had a chance to refocus his eyes back to the darkness, It was the dead of night no other noises anyone in the corner of the square could not have failed to hear and see Harvey long before Harvey even had a chance to see him.

                    www.trevormarriott.co.uk Click image for larger version

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                    Nice image,

                    Nicked from a joint Ripperologist magazine article I did with Jake Luukanen about the very subject y'all are pointlessly debating.

                    No ty
                    Monty

                    https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...t/evilgrin.gif

                    Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

                    http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Monty View Post

                      Nice image,

                      Nicked from a joint Ripperologist magazine article I did with Jake Luukanen about the very subject y'all are pointlessly debating.

                      No ty
                      Did I say it was my pic I merely posted it ?

                      www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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                      • Can anyone post the map which shows the location of the lamps in the square? I know it exists but for the moment it's eluding me.

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                          • Thanks Jerry, that's better than the one I was thinking of! It was in a paper, and listed all the lamps by number but there was one missing. Or at least I could never find it.

                            I note this map shows an entrance to Horner's chemical warehouse from the square. Was there any mention of a caretaker in there on the night? Don't remember one.
                            ​​​​​​
                            ​​​​​

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                            • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                              Thanks Jerry, that's better than the one I was thinking of! It was in a paper, and listed all the lamps by number but there was one missing. Or at least I could never find it.

                              I note this map shows an entrance to Horner's chemical warehouse from the square. Was there any mention of a caretaker in there on the night? Don't remember one.
                              ​​​​​​
                              ​​​​​
                              I can't recall a mention of a caretaker at Horner's either, but, considering the goods that were stored in that warehouse and the value of them, I would imagine a watchman would most certainly have been employed.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Monty View Post

                                Nice image,

                                Nicked from a joint Ripperologist magazine article I did with Jake Luukanen about the very subject y'all are pointlessly debating.

                                No ty
                                Yes a nice nicked image, but speculative as to actual amount of illumination. Pointless? Only to those with limited vision perhaps.

                                Dr. John
                                "We reach. We grasp. And what is left at the end? A shadow."
                                Sherlock Holmes, The Retired Colourman

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