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Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

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  • #46
    Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
    Hi Trevor,



    Yes, of course, but we only have the evidence we have. The possible evidence is limitless, the actual evidence, sadly, is not.



    Despite my statement above ( ) I think that was their job, given that there were standing orders to take note of couples at least.



    While it is dangerous to make too much from "absence of evidence", I think, given the publicity at the time, it is reasonable to suggest that if it had been two other people, even if a prostitute and client (actually, especially in that case), that the woman would have come forward and said "I was in Church Passage at that time", etc. As with Pearly Poll, I think she would have come forward. If it were two people, in a normal romantic relationship as well, I think they would have come forward as well. I suppose, say an affair, there are situations where neither would come forward, I think we're getting into "special circumstances have to exist" territory enough to suggest that the fact nobody identified themselves as the people in Church Passage as worthy of noting, and as being consistent with the couple being Eddowes and JtR (as I'm sure it's obvious JtR is not going to come forward).



    If another couple is documented, I agree, they have to be documented at the appropriate time. We have nothing to base PC Watkin's lying about his patrol time other than "what if he lied?" If we're going to do that, then heck, let's just discard everything and make up whatever we want.



    I'm actually not against that possibility. There was, apparently, a gas lamp at the Mitre Square end of Church Passage. So when PC Harvey reaches the end of Church Passage, the light there will make it all but impossible for him to see into Mitre Square (other than the lit up area). But of course, it makes him completely visible to anyone in Mitre Square. I think JtR could have still been in the corner when PC Harvey came up Church Passage, and yes, exiting out into Mitre Street at that time looks entirely "safe" for him at that time. But, we also know Morris opened the door somewhere around that time too, and if he did that before PC Harvey arrives, Jack may have been gone. Either of those events, though, would, reasonably, lead to JtR exiting the area. Either into St. James Place (though the firemen there say they didn't see anybody), or via Mitre Street and then north (as Watkins is coming from the south, so would have passed him, or seen him exit). Both work, but given the firemen's statement, I'm now tend to lean towards Mitre Street as well.

    - Jeff
    If the killer was disturbed by the watchman as you suggest, then that reduces even more the time the killer had with Eddowes in the square

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

      I don't think that's necessarily true Sam, anymore than the young couple seen outside the board school on Berner Street intended to go inside.

      As for the police being charged to look out for couples, I believe they were charged in that manner Trevor at that time. I still don't know how that might translate into 3 plainclothed detectives looking in alleys though. There doesn't seem to be any compelling reason to have detectives searching alleys near Mitre after 1am.
      But if the times were wrong the search was made after the body was found, when they all went off in different directions

      www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

        It isn't even reasonable to expect a prostitute or her client to come forward and admit to what they were doing.
        But it doesnt automatically follow to suggest that the couple seen by Lawende was a prostitute and client if they were not Eddowes and the killer could have been an innocent couple on their way home.

        www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

          If the killer was disturbed by the watchman as you suggest, then that reduces even more the time the killer had with Eddowes in the square

          www.trevormarriott.co.uk
          Yes, but not by much; Morris said he opened the door only a few minutes before Watkins called on him. So it sounds like PC Harvey and Morris are sufficiently close to each other that either could have come first, but probably close to each other. If the door comes first, then JtR may have been heading out into Mitre Str as PC Harvey starts up Church Passage. And if the door was opened after PC H's patrol, I would suspect JtR is long gone by the time the door was opened.

          Regardless, the doctors estimated 5 minutes for the murder, so as long as he starts shortly after PC Watkins makes his first 1:30 patrol, then he's got lots of spare time. With a 5 minute requirement, basically, that places the upper limit at 1:39, although that means he's leaving as Watkins finds the body, so near the limit times are senseless, so let's say upper limit of 1:38, and that means he leaves at least a minute before the body is found. So, couples spotted who could have entered Mitre Square between 1:30 and 1:38 are of most interest.

          There's the church passage couple. But there's less specific mentions of activity in St. James's Place, which seems to have generated less interest from the police.

          - Jeff

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Wickerman View Post


            Hi Jeff.

            The detail you referred to in the above quote, about the corner where Eddowes was found. There are press sketches which show a fence & a gate.



            Coincidentally, I just came across a newspaper sketch that shows Jack escaping through that same gate..


            IPN 13 Oct 1888.

            I thought, why even make this sketch when they know about the GSG and the expected escape route?
            The details from the inquest were published the day before (12th), perhaps news travels slow on a weekend.
            Much appreciated. I figured it was a fence, but wanted to verify.

            - Jeff

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

              Much appreciated. I figured it was a fence, but wanted to verify.

              - Jeff
              Here is another picture more modern.

              Where would it lead to if someone jumped over it. Looks like a dead end the other side !

              www.trevormarriott.co.uk Click image for larger version

Name:	MITRE SQ New.jpg
Views:	198
Size:	133.0 KB
ID:	709265

              Comment


              • #52
                Yes, and the plans look a dead end as well. Given there's a fence, it's a no-go area I think. If the plans were just marking a boundary line, and it was open, it might have afforded a place to back into while Harvey came up Church Passage, but the fence negates such notions. JtR was, I believe, on Eddowes' right side, probably facing towards the fence, if he was alerted to PC Harvey coming up Church passage (off and out of shot to the left of the photo), then fleeing out to Mitre Street (off and following the sidewalk/pavement towards the right of the shot) makes the most sense as the passage to St. James's Place would require heading diagonally through Mitre Square, which is more towards PC Harvey.

                Given there was, according to other maps I've seen, a gas light at the Mitre Square end of Church Passage, that escape is viable as PC Harvey's ability to see into the dark Square beyond the light source would be impaired. Though that wouldn't mask sounds of footsteps, of course.

                - Jeff

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                  Here is another picture more modern.

                  Where would it lead to if someone jumped over it. Looks like a dead end the other side !

                  www.trevormarriott.co.uk Click image for larger version  Name:	MITRE SQ New.jpg Views:	0 Size:	133.0 KB ID:	709265
                  As I said earlier, it led to the private backyard of #5 Mitre Street. (see F.W. Foster's plans of Mitre Square) The top of the arched doorway leading into the back of #5 can be seen through the fence.
                  Last edited by jerryd; 05-11-2019, 01:55 PM.

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                  • #54
                    If the man and woman seen by Lawende were not Eddowes and her nemesis, who were they and what were they doing at the end of Church Passage?

                    Here's a possible clue.

                    Click image for larger version

Name:	LINE OF SIGHT.JPG
Views:	173
Size:	44.4 KB
ID:	709288

                    Simon
                    Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                      Here is another picture more modern.

                      Where would it lead to if someone jumped over it. Looks like a dead end the other side !

                      www.trevormarriott.co.uk Click image for larger version

Name:	MITRE SQ New.jpg
Views:	198
Size:	133.0 KB
ID:	709265
                      Thankyou Trevor.

                      That gate, or a later version of it, carried a plaque identifying this as Rippers Corner, at some point. I remember a picture of that gate with the plaque was in one of the earliest Ripper books.
                      Regards, Jon S.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                        Thankyou Trevor.

                        That gate, or a later version of it, carried a plaque identifying this as Rippers Corner, at some point. I remember a picture of that gate with the plaque was in one of the earliest Ripper books.
                        My point is that someone suggested that the killer could have jumped the gate, if it didnt lead to another exit then he would have been stuffed ! So can we rule than line of exit out ?

                        www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
                          If the man and woman seen by Lawende were not Eddowes and her nemesis, who were they and what were they doing at the end of Church Passage?

                          Here's a possible clue.

                          Click image for larger version

Name:	LINE OF SIGHT.JPG
Views:	173
Size:	44.4 KB
ID:	709288

                          Simon
                          There's no point in asking who they were Simon, witnesses don't come forward as a rule. Even Lawende had to be sought out. This idea that "If the witness existed, or was innocent, they would have come forward, is a load of hogwash".
                          People in general choose to have nothing to do with it. As to the question of what they were doing, that is irrelevant, Britain was not a police state. No-one needs to justify why they are out at night.
                          Regards, Jon S.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Hi Jon,

                            Irrelevant?

                            It's unlike you to so completely miss the point of a question.

                            I wasn't suggesting they were innocent bystanders.

                            Regards,

                            Simon
                            Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              The Derby Daily Telegraph (Oct. 1st): "…indeed one of the policemen who saw the body (Eddowes) in the mortuary expressed his confident opinion that he had seen the woman walking several times in the neighborhood of Aldgate-High Street."[and,] "The police theory is that the man and woman, who had met in Aldgate, watched the policeman (Watkins) pass round the square, and they then entered it for an immoral purpose."

                              A similar story written on October 2, 1888 by a London correspondent for The New York Times: "The only trace considered of any value is the story of a watchboy who saw a man and a woman leave Aldgate station, going towards Mitre-square. The man returned shortly afterward alone. The police have a good description of him [….]

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                              • #60
                                Were the man and woman at the end of Church Passage on surveillance???
                                This case isn't over. It's just beginning...

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