Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

[FISHY1118]

Been a nice evening jeff but its late where i am and i got to get some sleep would be happy to discuss chapman with you tomorrow if you like goodnight for now . Fishy118

[JeffHamm]

It's instructive to remember this interview from a 1996 Secret History documentary on the Ripper, in the section relating to Eddowes' murder:

Interviewer: "Police surgeons of the day said that to do that amount of evisceration would take around 15 minutes or so. Is that your view?"
Pathologist: "About two minutes."
Interviewer: "Two minutes?"
Pathologist: "That's right. It's been very crudely done. Crudely, rapidly done. Moving a knife quickly, I would imagine that everything could have been done perhaps in two, perhaps in three minutes."

The pathologist in question was Dr Iain West, head of the faculty of Forensic Medicine at Guy's Hospital. A veteran of thousands of autopsies and several high-profile forensic pathology investigations, including those of Jill Dando and Sir Robert Maxwell.

Really? 2 or 3 minutes. I was working with the 5 minute estimate. 2 or 3 makes it less tight, so more "wiggle room" making it easier for the potential sighting to work (while, of course, also allowing for more opportunity for others to enter the equation - but more wiggle room on the time evidence doesn't change the fact we still have no other couples reported).

Regardless, that's interesting to hear.

- Jeff

[Sam Flynn]

with due respect to dr iain west ill still go with the surgeon opinion

Such is the advancement of knowledge, Iain West probably learned more in a year of pre-clinical studies than George Bagster Phillips or Gordon Brown learned throughout their entire medical degrees. Iain West was also a veteran of countless autopsies; he knew more than most about opening a body and removing its organs.

perform the removal of a human kidney with out damage to surrounding tissue

But he didn't do that. As Joshua pointed out earlier, there was damage to the pancreas, spleen, liver, large intestine, etc.

[Michael W Richards]

It's instructive to remember this interview from a 1996 Secret History documentary on the Ripper, in the section relating to Eddowes' murder:

Interviewer: "Police surgeons of the day said that to do that amount of evisceration would take around 15 minutes or so. Is that your view?"
Pathologist: "About two minutes."
Interviewer: "Two minutes?"
Pathologist: "That's right. It's been very crudely done. Crudely, rapidly done. Moving a knife quickly, I would imagine that everything could have been done perhaps in two, perhaps in three minutes."

The pathologist in question was Dr Iain West, head of the faculty of Forensic Medicine at Guy's Hospital. A veteran of thousands of autopsies and several high-profile forensic pathology investigations, including those of Jill Dando and Sir Robert Maxwell.

Hi Sam,

For me anyway the modern take on what was possible to be done in what length of time lacks all the relevant data of that specific location,.. the time of night, and the incidental cuts that were made..to the apron section, to her colon, to her face...assuming the killer went into this knowing ahead of time specifically what he would do, which I don't see here. I do see that Annies killer went about his business so he could do just what he did. He cut with the intention of removing the uterus.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Fishy,

Yes, there is. Don't have notes in front of me at the moment, but I believe Nichols and Chapman both showed swollen faces, bloated tongues, and there was medical testimony to both that they were strangled (might be phrased as "breathing interfered with" or such).

But none of the victims were deposited where they were found. All were killed on the spot.

- Jeff

There is evidence that Liz was choked with her scarf while her throat was being cut...if that factors in here.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Sam,

For me anyway the modern take on what was possible to be done in what length of time lacks all the relevant data of that specific location

Knowing full well what the conditions were, I reckon I could have achieved all that myself in at most 5 minutes, and probably less. It's surprising how much can be done in a short space of time.

[Dr. John Watson]

In discussing the length of time needed to complete the evisceration on Eddowes, bare in mind the Ripper was operating in the darkest corner of the square, with very limited illumination if any, crouched over the body, extracting entrails, finding and removing specific organs, in near darkness and working quickly. With apologies to Dr. West, I don't believe he could have finished the job in two minutes under those conditions.

Dr. John Watson

[Monty]

The Star doesn't go into any real detail as to what Blenkingsop was watching.

"James Blenkingsop, who was on duty as a watchman in St. James's-place (leading to the square), where some street improvements are taking place,...."

This is a view of the firestation looking from Kings Street end of St. James Place. The covered passage to Mitre Square is just right of centre in the background.

I’m aware of the image Wick, as it’s one Jake did for the joint work he did with me. And it was Jake who found the reference relating to the station renovations.

I shall all try and find the source. If I recall correctly it was a newspaper report.

Monty

[Wickerman]

I walked between the corner of Dukes Place (formally Duke Street and location of the Imperial Club), crossed the road, went along St James Passage (formally Church Passage) and down to the end at Mitre Street twice. Took maybe 90 seconds, if that, and I wasn't rushing.

Yes, I'm not surprised. It's a wholly subjective number. Everyone walks at a different pace. In the Victorian era women's clothing was much more restrictive than clothing today. Eddowes was wearing three skirts & some old men's boots, had just come off a bender & had not had much sleep. It just doesn't seem to me that she would have been walking all that fast.

Take for instance a constable on his beat. The beat constable was paced at 2.5 miles per hour, which is like 13,200 ft in 60 minutes, a pace of 220 ft per minute.
The total distance from the Duke St. end of Church Passage to where the body was found would round up at 170 ft., so less than a minute for the constable.

[Wickerman]

its quite simple jeff 1.35 from dukes passage to the spot of the murder 80 feet, let say 1.37 give or take , throat cut causing instant death 30 secs , body discovered 1.44 leaves 6 and half mins give or take . if the mutilations took at least 15 mins according to an expert surgeon not an opinion for just anyone an expert surgeon mind you were left with only one answer . eddows wasnt killed on that spot she was dumped there.

Not that it matters a whole lot, but the distance is about 170 ft, not 85.
Foster's sketch provides 85ft for Church Passage, but this dim. falls short of Mitre Square by about 10-12 ft. The square itself is 72 ft 6 inch across according to Foster.

Comparing what a surgeon does in an operating theatre with what this serial killer did in the open, in the dark, and under considerable time pressure, is hardly a valid comparison.
It might be more valuable to look up what a battlefield surgeon does. There's plenty of records from the American Civil War telling us how swift they had to be and under enormous pressure in less than satisfactory operating conditions.

[Wickerman]

Hi Fishy,

Yes, there is. Don't have notes in front of me at the moment, but I believe Nichols and Chapman both showed swollen faces, bloated tongues, and there was medical testimony to both that they were strangled (might be phrased as "breathing interfered with" or such).

But none of the victims were deposited where they were found. All were killed on the spot.

- Jeff

There is also an account by Phillips from the Chapman case that when he opened the brain he saw a lot of black blood, which he explain's meant the victim's heart continued to beat as the lungs were devoid of oxygen (if his actual words matter I'll find what he said). Evidence of strangulation.

[Wickerman]

It's instructive to remember this interview from a 1996 Secret History documentary on the Ripper, in the section relating to Eddowes' murder:

Interviewer: "Police surgeons of the day said that to do that amount of evisceration would take around 15 minutes or so. Is that your view?"
Pathologist: "About two minutes."
Interviewer: "Two minutes?"
Pathologist: "That's right. It's been very crudely done. Crudely, rapidly done. Moving a knife quickly, I would imagine that everything could have been done perhaps in two, perhaps in three minutes."

The pathologist in question was Dr Iain West, head of the faculty of Forensic Medicine at Guy's Hospital. A veteran of thousands of autopsies and several high-profile forensic pathology investigations, including those of Jill Dando and Sir Robert Maxwell.

Are we to assume he is doing this in near darkness?
Does Dr West still have all his fingers?

[Wickerman]

In discussing the length of time needed to complete the evisceration on Eddowes, bare in mind the Ripper was operating in the darkest corner of the square, with very limited illumination if any, crouched over the body, extracting entrails, finding and removing specific organs, in near darkness and working quickly. With apologies to Dr. West, I don't believe he could have finished the job in two minutes under those conditions.

Dr. John Watson

Precisely put!

[Wickerman]

I’m aware of the image Wick, as it’s one Jake did for the joint work he did with me. And it was Jake who found the reference relating to the station renovations.

I shall all try and find the source. If I recall correctly it was a newspaper report.

Monty

I couldn't provide credit for the pic, I can't for the life of me remember why I got it from.
Anyhow, I would like to see your newspaper source, if it's not too much trouble.

[Curious Cat]

Yes, I'm not surprised. It's a wholly subjective number. Everyone walks at a different pace. In the Victorian era women's clothing was much more restrictive than clothing today. Eddowes was wearing three skirts & some old men's boots, had just come off a bender & had not had much sleep. It just doesn't seem to me that she would have been walking all that fast.

Take for instance a constable on his beat. The beat constable was paced at 2.5 miles per hour, which is like 13,200 ft in 60 minutes, a pace of 220 ft per minute.
The total distance from the Duke St. end of Church Passage to where the body was found would round up at 170 ft., so less than a minute for the constable.

That assumes she walked the full distance. She may have been strangled and carried to the spot from within the passage. And that's if the couple Lawende saw was Catherine with her eventual killer.

My main draw to Mitre Square on Tuesday afternoon was to walk the route I thought the killer was most likely to have taken. Having checked it out physically I'm happy to stick with it as my No.1 choice of escape route. Where the killer goes between a few feet along Aldgate High Street east of Mitre Street and Goulston Street is still the missing piece. Although, it did seem strange to me that as I walked along Aldgate High Street I suddenly felt compelled to cross over and go down Jewry Street. I got as far as The Ten Tuns pub before turning back to continue on to Goulston Street. The Ten Tens would've been there at the time, but whether it was open and the killer took to hiding there is obviously speculative.

Although I walked up Goulston Street I wasn't actually sure at which point the piece of apron and graffiti was found by PC Long. Would someone be able put a dot on a modern map of the location?