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  • Originally posted by jerryd View Post

    Hi Scott.

    PC Langdon of the City force told of the Watkins story (standing aside to let a man pass in an alley shortly before the discovery of the murder) in a retirement article in 1912.

    * City PC E.T. Langdon Retires ( With Article) - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)
    That's an interesting story. Again, many years off, and some details suffer (he describes Watkins beat as being 7 minutes total). But, let's start with the assumption that there's a grain of truth in here. We need enough time for the murder to take place, including mutilations, etc. Doctors of the day suggest times between 3 and 5 maybe more minutes. The encounter is supposed to happen not too long before Watkins finds the body.

    I seem to recall some posts where it was stated that there's an alley in the vicinity of the circle I've drawn below. So if Watkins has to patrol that, this could be where he meets a potential JtR who has left the scene.


    Click image for larger version  Name:	MitreSquare_WatkinsEncounter.jpg Views:	0 Size:	195.8 KB ID:	777961

    So, I have just now gone and run the simulation to the point that PC Watkins is around that spot, in the southern street (around 1:42:00 in the simulation). And the interesting thing is, look where JtR on the Southern route along Mitre Square is! If he instead turned into an ally in that region, he would be bumping into PC Watkins!

    Problem is, I don't know if there really was an ally from Mitre Street to Leadenhall Street in that area, but I do have a recollection of someone indicating there was/might have been?

    While I wouldn't want to over interpret this, it is a bit of a "hmmmm" moment, simply because something unexpected seems to suddenly fit. (honest, I didn't run the sim first then think of that location - I just figured if it happened it had to be near the end of his round, not the start, and that made me remember discussions about a potential alley around there, etc).

    Click image for larger version  Name:	Watkins_Encounter_Idea.jpg Views:	0 Size:	122.7 KB ID:	777962

    Ok, I was able to update the sim and add "passage Jack", and it might look something like this:
    Click image for larger version

Name:	Watkins_Encounter_Idea.jpg
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    And the estimated locations of this JtR and PC Watkins are so close that it could very easily fit the story. If this ally way can be confirmed, then the recreation would suggest there is some plausibility for this encounter story.

    - Jeff
    Last edited by JeffHamm; 01-12-2022, 12:16 AM.

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    • Hi Jeff.

      The alleyway you marked on the map is #75 Leadenhall. It led to the courtyard you see on your map. The courtyard was at the back of #36 Mitre Street. Bloodstains were said to be found on the door/window (IIRC) of #36.

      Comment


      • Post #192 of this thread has a nice Goads map of that alley.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by jerryd View Post
          Post #192 of this thread has a nice Goads map of that alley.
          Thanks. Post 192 with the Goads map is here:

          Hi all, I'll apologize for the length of this now. :) Catharine Eddowes was found murdered in Mitre Square at 1:44 am by PC Watkins. He reports having previously patrolled this location at 1:30 am, at which time nothing suspicious was noted. At 1:30 am, Joseph Lawende and two friends (Joseph Levy and Harry Harris) were


          And the ally corresponds to the grey area with the X in it, where JtR is shown in the above simulation output.

          What I can't see in either map, though, is a way from Mitre Street to the courtyard without going through a building (which would require access), and this only works if JtR could cut through from Mitre Street and out into Leadenahll. So either he cuts through a building, or perhaps this isn't going to work after all.

          And weren't those bloodstains later shown to be paint?

          - Jeff

          Comment


          • If you’d just committed a crime in the City police jurisdiction might you not try to exit it at the closest point? Hang on, that might have you heading for Haydon Square where Pickfords once had a depot. Erase that ‘fantasy’ from your thoughts.

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            • Hey jd, Happy 2022 buddy.

              Originally posted by jerryd View Post

              The club Lawende and Co. were at was not a pub. The Imperial Club was a Jewish socialist club. Sound familiar? (Very good to mention this again jd, and what were the chances that the 2 murders committed that night, the ONLY night 2 are assumed done by JtR, would both have Socialist club members as primary witnesses)?

              PC Harvey said in his testimony he heard George Morris blow the whistle when he was returning toward Duke Street.(He heard "A" whistle Jerry...we have to stop assuming who is actually seen when only sounds are heard. Good examples of this in Berner Street are the presumptions about who was wearing the boots Fanny heard while indoors, whose cart and horse passed her door after 1...and which way, whose whistle blew just after 1, what time Fanny was or wasnt at her door. There are others).

              Last, this is kind of a side issue I have had with the scene of the crime. Off topic a bit to this discussion. Kate was found on her back with her arms by her side and her hands facing palms up. How does that happen? (One way would be if she was carried by her feet and arms and placed there.)
              Again on my assumptives point, until you have a sighting you have only a sound and ancillary witness statements to try and figure out the source, or cause, of the noise. When you have witnesses that should have been able to hear what is claimed, ....like Fanny not being able to hear a yell or 3 people on the street wearing military type boots( Liz is wearing that style..perhaps BSM and or Piepman would be wearing something similar), ....to hear shuffling about, when she obviously heard the bootsteps that most people assuming is a passing constable. While indoors.
              Michael Richards

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                Hey jd, Happy 2022 buddy.



                Again on my assumptives point, until you have a sighting you have only a sound and ancillary witness statements to try and figure out the source, or cause, of the noise. When you have witnesses that should have been able to hear what is claimed, ....like Fanny not being able to hear a yell or 3 people on the street wearing military type boots( Liz is wearing that style..perhaps BSM and or Piepman would be wearing something similar), ....to hear shuffling about, when she obviously heard the bootsteps that most people assuming is a passing constable. While indoors.
                The clubs in around Dukes Place were social - drinking/gambling - clubs.

                Comment


                • >>If you’d just committed a crime in the City police jurisdiction might you not try to exit it at the closest point? Hang on, that might have you heading for Haydon Square where Pickfords once had a depot. Erase that ‘fantasy’ from your thoughts.<<

                  Why?
                  dustymiller
                  aka drstrange

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
                    >>If you’d just committed a crime in the City police jurisdiction might you not try to exit it at the closest point? Hang on, that might have you heading for Haydon Square where Pickfords once had a depot. Erase that ‘fantasy’ from your thoughts.<<

                    Why?
                    Because it would be the City force who were on alert.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

                      Thanks. Post 192 with the Goads map is here:

                      Hi all, I'll apologize for the length of this now. :) Catharine Eddowes was found murdered in Mitre Square at 1:44 am by PC Watkins. He reports having previously patrolled this location at 1:30 am, at which time nothing suspicious was noted. At 1:30 am, Joseph Lawende and two friends (Joseph Levy and Harry Harris) were


                      And the ally corresponds to the grey area with the X in it, where JtR is shown in the above simulation output.

                      What I can't see in either map, though, is a way from Mitre Street to the courtyard without going through a building (which would require access), and this only works if JtR could cut through from Mitre Street and out into Leadenahll. So either he cuts through a building, or perhaps this isn't going to work after all.

                      And weren't those bloodstains later shown to be paint?

                      - Jeff
                      Jeff.

                      If you look at the Goads map there are actually two places marked as #36 Mitre Street. One is a Carp (Carpenter Shop I assume) and it also says at that location "Bk Arch". I'm not sure if that is brick arch or back arch, Could it have been a fully/partially arched area leading to the courtyard which then led to the archway of #75 Leadenhall?

                      As far as the bloodstains, I'll have to look back at the reports on that. Maybe it was "said" to be paint. I know two doors in Mitre Street had supposed bloodstains.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

                        Because it would be the City force who were on alert.
                        Hi Gary.

                        Both forces would be on alert at that point. Stride was just killed in Met land.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by jerryd View Post

                          Hi Gary.

                          Both forces would be on alert at that point. Stride was just killed in Met land.
                          Hi Jerry,

                          A fair distance away in St George E.

                          I doubt they were scouring the edges of the City for Strides killer.

                          Last edited by MrBarnett; 01-12-2022, 02:14 AM.

                          Comment


                          • >>Because it would be the City force who were on alert.<<

                            As it would for every possible suspect and the actual killer.

                            Decades ago I took one of Rumbelows walks, he made the point, that when he was a policeman people would just hop across Middlesex Road to escape city jurisdiction.
                            Everyone would have known that. Hayden was probably a tad further than Goulston and many people think the killer went there.
                            Last edited by drstrange169; 01-12-2022, 02:26 AM.
                            dustymiller
                            aka drstrange

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                              Hey jd, Happy 2022 buddy.



                              Again on my assumptives point, until you have a sighting you have only a sound and ancillary witness statements to try and figure out the source, or cause, of the noise. When you have witnesses that should have been able to hear what is claimed, ....like Fanny not being able to hear a yell or 3 people on the street wearing military type boots( Liz is wearing that style..perhaps BSM and or Piepman would be wearing something similar), ....to hear shuffling about, when she obviously heard the bootsteps that most people assuming is a passing constable. While indoors.
                              Hi Michael and Happy New Year to you as well!

                              I guess it's not much of an assumption since Morris was stated to have blown his own whistle as he was running up Mitre Street, Harvey hears a whistle while he is presumably a few steps away from Mitre Street and then Harvey runs into Morris.

                              I know what you're talking about, though, as I've pointed out in the past the whistle problem in the Alice McKenzie case with PC Andrews. There were huge assumptions about when and where that whistle was blown also.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
                                >>Because it would be the City force who were on alert.<<

                                As it would for every possible suspect and the actual killer.

                                Decades ago I took one of Rumbelows walks, he made the point, that when he was a policeman people would just hop across Middlesex Road to escape city jurisdiction.
                                Everyone would have known that. Hayden was probably a tad further than Goulston and many people think the killer went there.
                                Haydon Square was the closest point of exit from the City for someone in Mitre Square. Not everyone would have known that. And going in that direction would have brought you just to the south of Goulston Street.

                                I’m pleased to hear that Rumbelow bears out my idea.:-)

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