Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Hi NBFN,

    Here's Levy's inquest testimony, in full, as recorded in the official inquest reports (he testified right after Lawende):
    Joseph Hyam Levy 1 Hutchinson Street, Aldgate, Butcher, being sworn saith - "I was with the last Witness and Harris at the Imperial Club in Duke Street. We got up to go home at 1/2 past one. We came out about 3 or 4 minutes after the half hour. I saw a man and woman standing at the corner of Church Passage. I passed on taking no further notice of them. The man I should say was about 3 inches taller than the woman. I cannot give any description of either of them. We went down Duke Street into Aldgate leaving the man and woman still talking behind. I fix the time by the Club clock. I said when I came out to Mr. Harris, "Look there, I don't like going home by myself when I see those characters about."
    By Mr. Crawford - "There was nothing that I saw about the man and woman which caused me to fear them."
    Joseph Hyam Levy.

    I think his statement "We went down Duke Street into Aldgate..." makes it clear that the three of them all walked on together, and that Harris and Lawende did not remain behind any longer.

    It's also clear that, while he thought they were dodgy in some way (probably appeared like a client and prostitute), there wasn't anything particularly alarming about the couple. As such, it would not result in him taking any particular notice, as he indicates.

    It's roughly 1280 feet from the Club to the entrance of Hutchinson Street, which (at an average walking speed), would take about 4 minutes 42 seconds, so from the time they go up (1:30), plus the 3-5 minutes we have for their leaving, would mean we would expect him home somewhere between 1:37:42 and 1:39:42, all of which would fit his estimate of about twenty to two given he only fixed the time by the club clock at 1:30. Also, the route he describes pretty much means they turned their back on the couple when they left the club and they don't seem to walk past them at all.

    The coverage of his testimony in The Times reads a bit differently:
    Joseph Hyam Levy of 1, Hutchison-street, Aldgate, said he was a butcher. He as in the Imperial Club with the last witness, and the time when they rose to leave was half-past 1 by the club clock. It was about three or four minutes after the half-hour when they left. He noticed a man and woman standing together at the corner of Church-passage, but he passed on without taking any further notice of them. He did not look at them. From what he saw, the man might have been three inches taller than the woman. He could not give any description of either of them. He went on down Duke-street, into Aldgate, leaving the man and woman speaking together. He only fixed the time by the club clock.
    By a juryman. - His suspicions were not aroused by the two persons. He thought the spot was very badly lighted. It was now much better lighted than it was on the night of the murder. He did not take much notice of the man and woman.
    By Mr. Crawford. - He was on the opposite pavement to the man and woman. There was nothing that he saw to induce him to think that the man was doing any harm to her.

    The Times doesn't include the point that the three men all went down Duke street together, although that is contained in his testimony recorded in the official files.

    - Jeff

    Click image for larger version

Name:	Levy_Home.jpg
Views:	218
Size:	153.3 KB
ID:	733684

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

      yes still too cryptic. and who are your two men?

      Click image for larger version

Name:	Panto Horse.jpg
Views:	260
Size:	167.0 KB
ID:	733686
      My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

      Comment


      • Originally posted by DJA View Post


        Click image for larger version

Name:	Panto Horse.jpg
Views:	260
Size:	167.0 KB
ID:	733686
        The further adventures of Diemschutz's Donkey.
        Them's the vagaries.

        Comment


        • It appears to be shying to the left
          Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

          Comment


          • Hi Jeff.
            I will have to check out that World Imagery sight. You produce some good stuff from it.
            If it's not too much trouble, would you mind calculating the distance to 1 Hutchinson St when going via Gravel Lane, and is it Kew Street?

            Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

            I think his statement "We went down Duke Street into Aldgate..." makes it clear that the three of them all walked on together, and that Harris and Lawende did not remain behind any longer.
            These quotes from the Telegraph:

            Coroner: What height was the man?
            Levy: I should think he was three inches taller than the woman, who was, perhaps, 5ft high. I cannot give any further description of them. I went down Duke-street into Aldgate, leaving them still talking together.
            I was under the impression that 'I went down Duke-street into Aldgate, leaving them still talking together', was a reference to the CPC.
            However, now I'm not so sure...

            Coroner: Would you know him again?
            Lawende: I doubt it. The man and woman were about nine or ten feet away from me. I have no doubt it was half-past one o'clock when we rose to leave the club, so that it would be twenty-five minutes to two o'clock when we passed the man and woman.
            These quotes together, suggest that Levy went one way along Duke Street - heading away from the CPC, while Harris and Lawende went the other, and in the process, walked right past the CPC.

            Also, Lawende says the CPC were 9 or 10 feet from him, specifically.
            That sounds like a stationary reference.
            Other papers say:

            [DN] The club is 16 and 17 Duke street, about 15 or 16 feet from where they were standing at Church passage.
            [MA] The man and woman I saw standing together were about nine yards away from the club.
            [TT] The distance between the Imperial Club and the top of Church-passage, where he saw the man and the woman standing together, was about nine or ten yards.
            I believe the Mitre Square main entrance is 25 feet wide (including pavement), or 8.33 yards.
            When looking at this map (from the Casebook photo collection), it would seem that for the CPC to be standing 5 to 10 yards from the club, the reference must be made from the Church Passage side of the club pavement, rather than the club door.
            In other words, are the quoted estimates based on where Harris and Lawende stood for about 5 minutes - quite close to the CPC - before continuing to walk away from the club in the same direction they had left it?
            I think they are, and also, a minute or so prior, Levy had said 'I don't like going home by myself when I see these sort of characters about. I'm off.' - and walked away in the opposite direction.
            If the three men had all walked together, why would Levy have said 'I'm off', rather than, for example, 'Let's go'?

            Click image for larger version

Name:	16Mitre_Square_1888_CB.jpg
Views:	186
Size:	139.8 KB
ID:	733691

            It's also clear that, while he thought they were dodgy in some way (probably appeared like a client and prostitute), there wasn't anything particularly alarming about the couple. As such, it would not result in him taking any particular notice, as he indicates.
            But he does notice enough to say this:

            [MA] Here, I'm off. I don't like the look of those people over there. I don't like going home by myself at this hour of the morning. I don't like passing that class of persons.
            Does 'I don't like passing that class of persons', suggest that he goes home in the opposite direction to his normal - and slightly faster - route?

            In the MA, we also have this:

            Mr. Crawford - What was there terrible in their appearance? - I did not say that.
            ['What? Was there something terrible in their appearance?' - I think it should say]
            Your fear was about yourself? - Not exactly.
            You simply buttoned up your coat and hurried on? - Yes.
            If Levy is not alarmed by the CPC, why does he not contradict the question about fear?
            Clearly something is of concern to him.

            It's roughly 1280 feet from the Club to the entrance of Hutchinson Street, which (at an average walking speed), would take about 4 minutes 42 seconds, so from the time they go up (1:30), plus the 3-5 minutes we have for their leaving, would mean we would expect him home somewhere between 1:37:42 and 1:39:42, all of which would fit his estimate of about twenty to two given he only fixed the time by the club clock at 1:30. Also, the route he describes pretty much means they turned their back on the couple when they left the club and they don't seem to walk past them at all.
            Based on Levy's 1:33-34 leave estimate, and your figures, he gets home about a minute earlier than his estimate.
            For a trip of just under 5 minutes, it's not like he makes some uncannily accurate guess, if it is assumed he does not in fact, go straight home.
            Attached Files
            Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

              yes still too cryptic. and who are your two men?
              Abby,
              no offence intended, but how do you suppose you're going to catch the Ripper if you can't even work out my first name?

              Anyway, there is a long way to go before we can finally unlock the door to Jack's identity, but I think it will happen, one day.
              My own approach is to look out for the little hints, clues, oddities, inconsistencies and anomalies, in the various newspaper reports, and try to build up a theory from that.

              So take as an example, the current subject of the 3 men outside the Imperial Club, and their witnessing of the Church Passage Couple, as they are called.
              Joseph Levy says to the other two men: I don't like passing that class of persons.
              Now, if the 3 men are all intending to walk in a direction away from the CPC, that statement would appear to be redundant.
              So if Lawende refers to having gone past the man and woman, it would seem that he and Harris had indeed done that, and Levy walked alone, in the other direction.
              Levy tells us that he is 'not exactly' fearful, but what's to fear if he is briskly walking away from a harmless man and woman, who's most terrifying feature is that they look rough and shabby?
              I think Levy did not simply walk away, though.
              He had a gut feeling about the CPC, and acted on it - at risk to himself.
              He walked up Duke street, and turned into Aldgate High street, then after a short while he doubled-back, and walked right back to the Mitre Square entrance at Church Passage.
              He then waited for Jack to reemerge from the square, into which he surmised the couple had gone.

              This fits with what Sir Robert Anderson tells us; that at some point, someone had a good view of the Ripper when confronted with him, but also refused to testify against him.
              Perhaps that refusal was because JtR was Jewish, as was Levy, and as a consequence he would prefer to protect a fellow Jew from going to the gallows, than have justice done.
              That's one theory.
              Another one is; Levy felt threatened for the safety of his wife and himself.
              Wouldn't you, after reading this...?

              6 October 1888
              You though your-self very clever I reckon when you informed the police. But you made a mistake if you though I dident see you. Now I known you know me and I see your little game, and I mean to finish you and send your ears to your wife if you show this to the police or help them if you do I will finish you. It no use your trying to get out of my way. Because I have you when you dont expect it and I keep my word as you soon see and rip you up. Yours truly Jack the Ripper.

              PS You see I know your address


              Now that may have been intended for Lawende, but it's not worth taking the risk, to find out.

              So, if Jack has spotted the men observing him, and perhaps recognized one of them, and Levy is heading back to near the start of Church Passage, it becomes intriguing to suppose what would have occurred.

              Maybe something like this...

              As Jack enters the square with Kate, he is concerned about having been seen by the men standing outside the Jewish club.
              He wants to walk right on through the square, and take her somewhere safer, but she wants the deed over and done with - where they are - and the money.
              Realizing she is not going to easily cooperate with his wish to keep moving, he tries to pull her into Mitre Street.
              She resists, and Jack realizes he cannot afford for her to make any loud noise, and in his frustration, throws Kate down where they stand, onto the footway.
              She groans a few times, from the pain of the hard fall, but fortunately for Jack, not very loudly.
              Before Kate has time to get to her feet, Jack senses his opportunity, with a swiftly drawn knife...

              When Levy returns to where he and the other two men had been watching the CPC, he stands on the pavement outside the club, on the corner closest to Church Passage.
              To look as inconspicuous as possible, he proceeds to light his pipe, and smoke it.

              After a few minutes, Jack cautiously reemerges from Church Passage.
              He is a little startled to find a man looking at him, just a few yards away on the other side of the street.
              Levy takes a couple of steps in Jack's direction, and asks him where the woman is, he had seen him talking to.
              Jack is high on the adrenaline rush of killing and eviscerating another human, and initially struggles to speak in a coherent manner.
              He let's go with an ethnic slur - Lipski! - and draws his knife.
              Now it turns out that Levy has a knife of his own - he is a butcher by trade - and usually has a knife on his person, for personal protection.
              Jack decides not to push his luck, but Levy takes a step closer, and once again asks Jack where the woman is.
              But Jack remains obstinate, and when Levy asks him what is in the parcel he holds, Jack simply yells back; 'I am not the murderer!'
              Jack then begins to walk away, but finding that Levy is following behind, he begins to run.
              Levy does his best to keep up, but Jack gets away, and ends up running as far as the railway arch.
              By then, Jack realizes he has reached safety, and then walks on until he reaches Batty street.
              Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

              Comment


              • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                Maybe something like this...

                As Jack enters the square with Kate, he is concerned about having been seen by the men standing outside the Jewish club.
                He wants to walk right on through the square, and take her somewhere safer, but she wants the deed over and done with - where they are - and the money.
                Realizing she is not going to easily cooperate with his wish to keep moving, he tries to pull her into Mitre Street.
                She resists, and Jack realizes he cannot afford for her to make any loud noise, and in his frustration, throws Kate down where they stand, onto the footway.
                She groans a few times, from the pain of the hard fall, but fortunately for Jack, not very loudly.
                Before Kate has time to get to her feet, Jack senses his opportunity, with a swiftly drawn knife...

                When Levy returns to where he and the other two men had been watching the CPC, he stands on the pavement outside the club, on the corner closest to Church Passage.
                To look as inconspicuous as possible, he proceeds to light his pipe, and smoke it.

                After a few minutes, Jack cautiously reemerges from Church Passage.
                He is a little startled to find a man looking at him, just a few yards away on the other side of the street.
                Levy takes a couple of steps in Jack's direction, and asks him where the woman is, he had seen him talking to.
                Jack is high on the adrenaline rush of killing and eviscerating another human, and initially struggles to speak in a coherent manner.
                He let's go with an ethnic slur - Lipski! - and draws his knife.
                Now it turns out that Levy has a knife of his own - he is a butcher by trade - and usually has a knife on his person, for personal protection.
                Jack decides not to push his luck, but Levy takes a step closer, and once again asks Jack where the woman is.
                But Jack remains obstinate, and when Levy asks him what is in the parcel he holds, Jack simply yells back; 'I am not the murderer!'
                Jack then begins to walk away, but finding that Levy is following behind, he begins to run.
                Levy does his best to keep up, but Jack gets away, and ends up running as far as the railway arch.
                By then, Jack realizes he has reached safety, and then walks on until he reaches Batty street.
                So he (JTR) runs back into the territory (Berner Street) where there is an active murder investigation going on with an apron in his hands? Returning the apron from Batty Street back to Goulston Street would be quite a risk, no? By then, two murder investigations going on.

                Also, I'm not sure if you are saying Levy was Pipeman, but wouldn't the Lipski/Pipeman scenario be at the wrong murder site as you propose?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                  Abby,
                  no offence intended, but how do you suppose you're going to catch the Ripper if you can't even work out my first name?

                  Anyway, there is a long way to go before we can finally unlock the door to Jack's identity, but I think it will happen, one day.
                  My own approach is to look out for the little hints, clues, oddities, inconsistencies and anomalies, in the various newspaper reports, and try to build up a theory from that.

                  So take as an example, the current subject of the 3 men outside the Imperial Club, and their witnessing of the Church Passage Couple, as they are called.
                  Joseph Levy says to the other two men: I don't like passing that class of persons.
                  Now, if the 3 men are all intending to walk in a direction away from the CPC, that statement would appear to be redundant.
                  So if Lawende refers to having gone past the man and woman, it would seem that he and Harris had indeed done that, and Levy walked alone, in the other direction.
                  Levy tells us that he is 'not exactly' fearful, but what's to fear if he is briskly walking away from a harmless man and woman, who's most terrifying feature is that they look rough and shabby?
                  I think Levy did not simply walk away, though.
                  He had a gut feeling about the CPC, and acted on it - at risk to himself.
                  He walked up Duke street, and turned into Aldgate High street, then after a short while he doubled-back, and walked right back to the Mitre Square entrance at Church Passage.
                  He then waited for Jack to reemerge from the square, into which he surmised the couple had gone.

                  This fits with what Sir Robert Anderson tells us; that at some point, someone had a good view of the Ripper when confronted with him, but also refused to testify against him.
                  Perhaps that refusal was because JtR was Jewish, as was Levy, and as a consequence he would prefer to protect a fellow Jew from going to the gallows, than have justice done.
                  That's one theory.
                  Another one is; Levy felt threatened for the safety of his wife and himself.
                  Wouldn't you, after reading this...?

                  6 October 1888
                  You though your-self very clever I reckon when you informed the police. But you made a mistake if you though I dident see you. Now I known you know me and I see your little game, and I mean to finish you and send your ears to your wife if you show this to the police or help them if you do I will finish you. It no use your trying to get out of my way. Because I have you when you dont expect it and I keep my word as you soon see and rip you up. Yours truly Jack the Ripper.

                  PS You see I know your address


                  Now that may have been intended for Lawende, but it's not worth taking the risk, to find out.

                  So, if Jack has spotted the men observing him, and perhaps recognized one of them, and Levy is heading back to near the start of Church Passage, it becomes intriguing to suppose what would have occurred.

                  Maybe something like this...

                  As Jack enters the square with Kate, he is concerned about having been seen by the men standing outside the Jewish club.
                  He wants to walk right on through the square, and take her somewhere safer, but she wants the deed over and done with - where they are - and the money.
                  Realizing she is not going to easily cooperate with his wish to keep moving, he tries to pull her into Mitre Street.
                  She resists, and Jack realizes he cannot afford for her to make any loud noise, and in his frustration, throws Kate down where they stand, onto the footway.
                  She groans a few times, from the pain of the hard fall, but fortunately for Jack, not very loudly.
                  Before Kate has time to get to her feet, Jack senses his opportunity, with a swiftly drawn knife...

                  When Levy returns to where he and the other two men had been watching the CPC, he stands on the pavement outside the club, on the corner closest to Church Passage.
                  To look as inconspicuous as possible, he proceeds to light his pipe, and smoke it.

                  After a few minutes, Jack cautiously reemerges from Church Passage.
                  He is a little startled to find a man looking at him, just a few yards away on the other side of the street.
                  Levy takes a couple of steps in Jack's direction, and asks him where the woman is, he had seen him talking to.
                  Jack is high on the adrenaline rush of killing and eviscerating another human, and initially struggles to speak in a coherent manner.
                  He let's go with an ethnic slur - Lipski! - and draws his knife.
                  Now it turns out that Levy has a knife of his own - he is a butcher by trade - and usually has a knife on his person, for personal protection.
                  Jack decides not to push his luck, but Levy takes a step closer, and once again asks Jack where the woman is.
                  But Jack remains obstinate, and when Levy asks him what is in the parcel he holds, Jack simply yells back; 'I am not the murderer!'
                  Jack then begins to walk away, but finding that Levy is following behind, he begins to run.
                  Levy does his best to keep up, but Jack gets away, and ends up running as far as the railway arch.
                  By then, Jack realizes he has reached safety, and then walks on until he reaches Batty street.
                  hi not

                  Abby,
                  no offence intended, but how do you suppose you're going to catch the Ripper if you can't even work out my first name?
                  im not trying to work out your first name-I could care less what your first name is lol. and no offence but you seem to have mitre square and dutfield yard mixed up.

                  and if you cant (or wont)explain your theory in a sentence or two or just plain say who your suspects are ive no interest in your posts any more.
                  "Is all that we see or seem
                  but a dream within a dream?"

                  -Edgar Allan Poe


                  "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                  quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                  -Frederick G. Abberline

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
                    Hi Jeff.
                    I will have to check out that World Imagery sight. You produce some good stuff from it.
                    If it's not too much trouble, would you mind calculating the distance to 1 Hutchinson St when going via Gravel Lane, and is it Kew Street?



                    These quotes from the Telegraph:



                    I was under the impression that 'I went down Duke-street into Aldgate, leaving them still talking together', was a reference to the CPC.
                    However, now I'm not so sure...



                    These quotes together, suggest that Levy went one way along Duke Street - heading away from the CPC, while Harris and Lawende went the other, and in the process, walked right past the CPC.

                    Also, Lawende says the CPC were 9 or 10 feet from him, specifically.
                    That sounds like a stationary reference.
                    Other papers say:



                    I believe the Mitre Square main entrance is 25 feet wide (including pavement), or 8.33 yards.
                    When looking at this map (from the Casebook photo collection), it would seem that for the CPC to be standing 5 to 10 yards from the club, the reference must be made from the Church Passage side of the club pavement, rather than the club door.
                    In other words, are the quoted estimates based on where Harris and Lawende stood for about 5 minutes - quite close to the CPC - before continuing to walk away from the club in the same direction they had left it?
                    I think they are, and also, a minute or so prior, Levy had said 'I don't like going home by myself when I see these sort of characters about. I'm off.' - and walked away in the opposite direction.
                    If the three men had all walked together, why would Levy have said 'I'm off', rather than, for example, 'Let's go'?

                    Click image for larger version

Name:	16Mitre_Square_1888_CB.jpg
Views:	186
Size:	139.8 KB
ID:	733691



                    But he does notice enough to say this:



                    Does 'I don't like passing that class of persons', suggest that he goes home in the opposite direction to his normal - and slightly faster - route?

                    In the MA, we also have this:


                    If Levy is not alarmed by the CPC, why does he not contradict the question about fear?
                    Clearly something is of concern to him.



                    Based on Levy's 1:33-34 leave estimate, and your figures, he gets home about a minute earlier than his estimate.
                    For a trip of just under 5 minutes, it's not like he makes some uncannily accurate guess, if it is assumed he does not in fact, go straight home.
                    Hi NBFN,

                    It's about the same distance if one goes up Duke and then across and down into Hutchinson (about 1232 feet, so maybe even a bit shorter), but that would contradict Levy's testimony of going to Aldgate.

                    Lawende's testimony, from the official records, reads:
                    Joseph Lawende 45 Norfolk Road, Dalston, Commercial Traveller, being sworn saith - "On the night of the 29th I was at the Imperial Club. Mr. Joseph Levy and Mr. Harry Harris were with me. It was raining. Left there to go out at 1/2 past one and we left the house about 5 minutes later. I walked a little further from the others. Standing in the corner of Church Passage in Duke Street, which leads into Mitre square, I saw a woman. She was standing with her face towards a man. I only saw her back. She had her hand on his chest. The man was taller than she was. She had a black jacket and a black bonnet. I have seen the articles which it was stated belonged to her at the police station. My belief is that they were the same clothes which I had seen upon the Deceased. She appeared to me short. The man had a cloth cap on with a cloth peak. I have given a description of the man to the police. I doubt whether I should know him again."
                    By Mr. Crawford = "The number of the Club is 16 & 17 Duke Street. It is 15 or 16 feet from the Club to the passage where they were standing. I fix the time by the Club clock and my own watch at 1/2 past one. I did not hear a word they said. They did not either of them appear to be quarrelling. They appeared conversing very quietly. I did not look back to see where they went."
                    Joseph Lawende

                    So, Lawende indicates he walked a bit separate from the others, which indicates Levy and Harris were walking together. And Levy indicates they headed towards Aldgate.

                    The Newspapers often rephased things slightly (they had to take notes by hand after all, then recreate any incomplete sentences recorded). The official transcripts just recorded the witness statements and unfortunately, leave out questions put to them (which is why they read oddly).

                    Levy's statement about not liking to walk home along, etc, doesn't mean he did separate from the other, if anything, it sounds more like he was requesting them to accompany him, but it could be made to fit either way. Still, I think Levy and Lawende's testimonies combined give us the information, which is that the group of them headed more or less in a bunch, and headed away from the CPC towards Aldgate. They never get closer than from their vantage point at the Club, and they do not look back once they head off. That also means that once they leave the club, they cease to observe the CPC entirely (they have their backs towards them), so it is from that point on that we no longer know what the CPC do.

                    - Jeff

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                      hi not



                      im not trying to work out your first name-I could care less what your first name is lol. and no offence but you seem to have mitre square and dutfield yard mixed up.

                      and if you cant (or wont)explain your theory in a sentence or two or just plain say who your suspects are ive no interest in your posts any more.
                      Hi.
                      I don't think Andrew has mixed up Berner St with Mitre Square. He's transposed Schwartz statement, because obviously there's a conspiracy. Or Schwartz is the ripper, if it's not Diemschutz. Or something. Try as I might, I can't fathom out what he's getting at. It's all getting a bit "Pierresque". So I think you're stance is the right one. If he's not going to explain anything in simple terms, leave him to it.

                      Or failing that, NBFN, how about just throwing some theories out there? I actually like alot of the little details you pick up on and what's the forum for if not sharing ideas and opinions? Please, don't let your researching devolve into "I know something, but I can't tell you yet". Personally, I'm a bit cinical at times, but there are good reasons for picking apart the testimonies surrounding the 'double event', lots of people, lots of statements and far more questions than answers. But seriously, if you've got an idea that's a bit out of left field or such, great. I'd like to hear it.

                      Respectfully Yours.
                      Them's the vagaries.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Al Bundy's Eyes View Post

                        Hi.
                        I don't think Andrew has mixed up Berner St with Mitre Square. He's transposed Schwartz statement, because obviously there's a conspiracy. Or Schwartz is the ripper, if it's not Diemschutz. Or something. Try as I might, I can't fathom out what he's getting at. It's all getting a bit "Pierresque". So I think you're stance is the right one. If he's not going to explain anything in simple terms, leave him to it.

                        Or failing that, NBFN, how about just throwing some theories out there? I actually like alot of the little details you pick up on and what's the forum for if not sharing ideas and opinions? Please, don't let your researching devolve into "I know something, but I can't tell you yet". Personally, I'm a bit cinical at times, but there are good reasons for picking apart the testimonies surrounding the 'double event', lots of people, lots of statements and far more questions than answers. But seriously, if you've got an idea that's a bit out of left field or such, great. I'd like to hear it.

                        Respectfully Yours.
                        bingo al well said
                        "Is all that we see or seem
                        but a dream within a dream?"

                        -Edgar Allan Poe


                        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                        -Frederick G. Abberline

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by jerryd View Post

                          So he (JTR) runs back into the territory (Berner Street) where there is an active murder investigation going on with an apron in his hands? Returning the apron from Batty Street back to Goulston Street would be quite a risk, no? By then, two murder investigations going on.
                          You're right - I screwed up the end of it, or at least massively oversimplified.
                          My only excuse is that it was about the same time of night as the events, when I posted.
                          I will have to think more about the end of the story, especially the Batty street bit.

                          Also, I'm not sure if you are saying Levy was Pipeman, but wouldn't the Lipski/Pipeman scenario be at the wrong murder site as you propose?
                          In my scenario, Pipeman (aka Knifeman) becomes a known individual, the condition of the victim becomes compatible with being thrown down onto hard ground, and most of the noise occurs away from the murder spot - mostly explaining why no one hears a thing, in contrast to the alternative.
                          I say 'mostly explaining why', because watchman George Morris was awake in the warehouse, but then again, he probably had Watkins tea can on the boil.
                          Also, there are now only 3 moving parts (people) to account for, rather than 4, and no awkward 15 minute gap between assault and discovery of the victim, to explain away.

                          Are you sure I have the wrong site?
                          Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                            You're right - I screwed up the end of it, or at least massively oversimplified.
                            My only excuse is that it was about the same time of night as the events, when I posted.
                            I will have to think more about the end of the story, especially the Batty street bit.



                            In my scenario, Pipeman (aka Knifeman) becomes a known individual, the condition of the victim becomes compatible with being thrown down onto hard ground, and most of the noise occurs away from the murder spot - mostly explaining why no one hears a thing, in contrast to the alternative.
                            I say 'mostly explaining why', because watchman George Morris was awake in the warehouse, but then again, he probably had Watkins tea can on the boil.
                            Also, there are now only 3 moving parts (people) to account for, rather than 4, and no awkward 15 minute gap between assault and discovery of the victim, to explain away.

                            Are you sure I have the wrong site?
                            Thanks for the response.

                            So, a Kosminski/Levy theory? Levy being a distraction?

                            Comment


                            • More like ....

                              Click image for larger version

Name:	I allus has wan at eleven1_7649284_tcm11-17880.jpg
Views:	59
Size:	139.2 KB
ID:	733701
                              My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

                                It's about the same distance if one goes up Duke and then across and down into Hutchinson (about 1232 feet, so maybe even a bit shorter), but that would contradict Levy's testimony of going to Aldgate.
                                So why do you suppose he is taking the longer way home?
                                Also, what would be the quickest direction home for Lawende (45 Norfolk Road, Dalston) and Harris?

                                Lawende's testimony, from the official records, reads:
                                Joseph Lawende 45 Norfolk Road, Dalston, Commercial Traveller, being sworn saith - "On the night of the 29th I was at the Imperial Club. Mr. Joseph Levy and Mr. Harry Harris were with me. It was raining. Left there to go out at 1/2 past one and we left the house about 5 minutes later. I walked a little further from the others. Standing in the corner of Church Passage in Duke Street, which leads into Mitre square, I saw a woman. She was standing with her face towards a man. I only saw her back. She had her hand on his chest. The man was taller than she was. She had a black jacket and a black bonnet. I have seen the articles which it was stated belonged to her at the police station. My belief is that they were the same clothes which I had seen upon the Deceased. She appeared to me short. The man had a cloth cap on with a cloth peak. I have given a description of the man to the police. I doubt whether I should know him again."
                                By Mr. Crawford = "The number of the Club is 16 & 17 Duke Street. It is 15 or 16 feet from the Club to the passage where they were standing. I fix the time by the Club clock and my own watch at 1/2 past one. I did not hear a word they said. They did not either of them appear to be quarrelling. They appeared conversing very quietly. I did not look back to see where they went."
                                Joseph Lawende

                                So, Lawende indicates he walked a bit separate from the others, which indicates Levy and Harris were walking together. And Levy indicates they headed towards Aldgate.
                                This sentence - Left there to go out at 1/2 past one and we left the house about 5 minutes later. - needs a bit of interpretation.
                                They cannot leave twice, and I seriously wonder how long they stayed inside after getting up to leave at 1:30.
                                Did the rain really stop bang on the half hour?
                                Did one of them notice the CPC, through a window at the front of the club?
                                Why did the CPC even attract their attention, if they never dwelt outside the club, but just continued to walk up Duke St, away from the couple?
                                Seems they picked up quite a lot of detail, in just a few seconds, without looking back over their shoulders.
                                Lawende in the MA:

                                The man and woman I saw standing together were about nine yards away from the club. Neither the man nor the woman appeared to be in an angry mood. There was nothing in their movements which attracted my attention except that the man was a rough looking fellow. The woman had her hand on the man's chest, but did not seem as if she was pushing him away. They were standing together conversing quietly, and I was not curious enough to look back and see where they went.
                                You're interpreting this sentence - I walked a little further from the others. - to mean that Lawende walked somewhat separately to the other two.
                                That seems to be the standard interpretation, but I take it as meaning he puts a small distance between himself and the others, before they stop.
                                If Lawende meant he walked apart from the others, he would have said just that - I walked a little apart from the others.
                                On the other hand, if Lawende did walk (along) further from the others, he is therefore further from the CPC than the others.
                                So he would presumably see the least, but instead he sees the most. How can that be?

                                Levy's statement about not liking to walk home along, etc, doesn't mean he did separate from the other, if anything, it sounds more like he was requesting them to accompany him, but it could be made to fit either way.
                                'I'm off' - sounds fairly conclusive to me, but why doesn't Levy stay with the other's (assuming he goes separately), when he sounds a little apprehensive?
                                It's really quite a contradiction, and how could Levy be off (on his own), if Lawende walks further from the others?

                                Still, I think Levy and Lawende's testimonies combined give us the information, which is that the group of them headed more or less in a bunch, and headed away from the CPC towards Aldgate. They never get closer than from their vantage point at the Club, and they do not look back once they head off. That also means that once they leave the club, they cease to observe the CPC entirely (they have their backs towards them), so it is from that point on that we no longer know what the CPC do.
                                I would really like to know what other people following this thread, think about all this.
                                Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X