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Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

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  • Here's another possibility: Watkins comes into Mitre Square at 1:30 and walks as far as the edge of the buildings at the entry and quickly flashes his light around, then walks back out. The Ripper, being busy with Eddowes in the corner, waits until Watkins turns back. Seven minutes later Watkins lets the Ripper walk past him in St. James Place.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

      Watkins had a watch on him apparently, so his times are based upon his noting the times (as would be done to log his beat, for the entry time, and for important events, like finding bodies). We can set out times by his watch. How tohse marry up with other clocks, we don't know.
      Even if he didn't have a watch, as long as he has access to a couple of regularly calibrated clocks, along his beat, his estimate of the time should never be out by more than a very small percentage of his beat's mean timespan.
      I would suggest this is true for any PC with access to more than one clock per beat.

      Number 2 is speculation with nothing to back it up other than to fall back on "it's possible". Possible isn't enough to make it a serious contentender for what is probable. Without evidence to support it, it's just a "well maybe it was ..." type story.
      What about Macnaughten's draft reference to Kosminski?...

      MM: This man in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City PC near Mitre Square.
      Or Robert Sagar's reference to the same event?

      Number 3 falls into the same category as number 2.
      Why was the warehouse door left slightly ajar, or 'on the jar', just minutes before Watkins knocked and then pushed it open?
      Why was Watkins familiar with the door being in that position?
      Perhaps it was so that Watkins, who usually turned up for a cuppa at around 1:30, could walk in without having to make much sound.
      Otherwise, what purpose was served by having the door in that position?

      Number 4, to be honest, I think doesn't even fall into the possible range.
      An article in Ripperologist #75 - 'Cat's Cradle' by Rob Hills - examines this scenario.

      Sequeira's ToD estimate, like all ToD estimates of the time, are based upon a flawed method, and shouldn't be considered as being either here nor there. Sometimes they seem ok, sometimes they do not. Random estimates will do that. We can set them all aside as unreliable, though occasionally they may by luck look accurate. Most likely, JtR fled the scene when Harvey patrolled Church Passage, which by his account was a few minutes before he heard the whilstle, which was shortly after Watkins' finds the body. That would make JtR fleeing the scene somewhere around 1:42 or 1:43, pending on how long it takes from Watkins finding the body to fetch Morris, for Morris to view the body, then go back and get his whistle. I would give all that a minute.
      I will leave it to others to comment on ToD estimates (I haven't done much research on this).
      Why would Jack flee when Harvey comes along - does he see the lantern light, while busily working?

      If the Church Passage Couple is Eddowes and JtR, the earliest they could entre the square is around 1:33 (based upon Levy's testimony) or 1:35 (based upon Lawende's). Prior to that, Levy and Lawende indicate it was raining hard enough that they waited for it to pass, so it is unlikely that Eddowes and JtR would have entered regardless (meaning, if the Church Passage Couple is not them, which is possible), then it is still unlikly Eddowes and JtR entered the square any earlier. But from 1:33 - 1:42 is 9 minutes, and from 1:35 it's 7 minutes.
      My understanding is that the rain had stopped (or eased right off) by 1:30, then the 3 men rose to leave, and walked out of the club 3-5 minutes later.
      That's nearly 3-5 minutes in which the observed couple could have entered the square, and more if the rain ceases a bit before 1:30 (it is unlikely the men got up to leave the second the rain stopped).
      Therefore, what are the couple waiting for?
      It probably wasn't Jack and Eddowes, unless the men know something about what's going on.

      While those would fit with Sequeria's estimate, I would suggest that's probably because Sequeria was aware that's the time window that it had to be, and he was just saying he didn't dispuse that.
      Was he aware of the lower end of the time window when he spoke?
      Didn't Lawende and Levy speak after Sequeira - thus there was no probable lower time bound until then, other than Watkins 1:30 visit?
      Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

        Watkins had a watch on him apparently, so his times are based upon his noting the times (as would be done to log his beat, for the entry time, and for important events, like finding bodies). We can set out times by his watch. How tohse marry up with other clocks, we don't know.
        Found a reference to Watkins' watch.

        The Times, Oct 5:

        The beat took 12 or 14 minutes. He had been continually patrolling that beat from 10 o'clock on Saturday night until 1:30 on Sunday morning without anything exciting his attention. He had passed through Mitre-square at about 1:30 on Sunday morning. He had his lantern fixed in his belt, and in accordance with his usual practice, he looked into the different corners, passages and warehouses. Nothing excited his attention at 1:30 nor did he see any one about. No one could have been in any portion of the square at that hour without the cognizance of the witness. He next came into Mitre-square about 1:44. He fixed the time by reference to his watch after he had called the watchman. He entered the square from the right, near the corner, where something attracted his attention.
        This 1:44 checking of the watch could have been after Morris goes off with his whistle, and Watkins goes back to the body.
        How much time has elapsed between Watkins entering the square, and that point?
        It may not be a negligible amount.
        Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post
          Here's another possibility: Watkins comes into Mitre Square at 1:30 and walks as far as the edge of the buildings at the entry and quickly flashes his light around, then walks back out. The Ripper, being busy with Eddowes in the corner, waits until Watkins turns back. Seven minutes later Watkins lets the Ripper walk past him in St. James Place.
          Ok, so whats the deal on Harvey then? Did he look into the square, or not?
          Michael Richards

          Comment


          • Yes, but the Ripper would have left by then.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

              Even if he didn't have a watch, as long as he has access to a couple of regularly calibrated clocks, along his beat, his estimate of the time should never be out by more than a very small percentage of his beat's mean timespan.
              I would suggest this is true for any PC with access to more than one clock per beat.
              That's probably the case, but since Watkin's had a watch that he consulted, not really applicable here. PC Harvey doesn't appear to have had one, and based his times on the Post Office clock on each cycle of his beat (I have some memory of people suggesting he could check it twice per beat, but I have many memories that are not true).

              What about Macnaughten's draft reference to Kosminski?...



              Or Robert Sagar's reference to the same event?
              The general consensus is that MM conflated the Met Police who testified a possible sighting of Stride and a man with Eddowes' murder of the same night, transposing the PC to the City Police as a result. There doesn't appear to be any recorded evidence of a City Police officer indicating a possible sighting of Eddowes' with JtR. Either the evidence has been lost, which we cannot know, or MM was mistaken as tends to be argued.

              Why was the warehouse door left slightly ajar, or 'on the jar', just minutes before Watkins knocked and then pushed it open?
              Why was Watkins familiar with the door being in that position?
              Perhaps it was so that Watkins, who usually turned up for a cuppa at around 1:30, could walk in without having to make much sound.
              Otherwise, what purpose was served by having the door in that position?
              Morris was cleaning/sweeping the warehouse floor. He apparently opened it a few minutes before Watkins called on him in order to sweep things out of the building. Morris, being an ex-policeman, may have had a nightly cuppa with Watkins (particularly on a night when it would be cold and wet), so that's possible too. Of course, the two options aren't mutually exclusive, and he could easily have been sweeping up and expecting Watkins at the same time.
              An article in Ripperologist #75 - 'Cat's Cradle' by Rob Hills - examines this scenario.



              I will leave it to others to comment on ToD estimates (I haven't done much research on this).
              Why would Jack flee when Harvey comes along - does he see the lantern light, while busily working?
              I think it's self evident why Jack would flee isn't it? Or do you mean how did he know Harvey was even there? I suppose, though all he has to do is hear Havey approaching up the ally, or see his lantern as you suggest, etc. PC Harvey reports doing this patrol a few minutes before hearing Morris blow his whistle, and Morris indicates that Watkin's showed up shortly after he opened the door to sweep things out (but didn't look into the yard). So the door opening and PC Harvey's arrival are hard to know which came first as they appear to be on the heels of each other. So it is possible JtR flees due to the door opening, just before PC Harvey comes up the passage.
              My understanding is that the rain had stopped (or eased right off) by 1:30, then the 3 men rose to leave, and walked out of the club 3-5 minutes later.
              That's nearly 3-5 minutes in which the observed couple could have entered the square, and more if the rain ceases a bit before 1:30 (it is unlikely the men got up to leave the second the rain stopped).
              Therefore, what are the couple waiting for?
              It probably wasn't Jack and Eddowes, unless the men know something about what's going on.
              I believe Lawende and Levey both testify they got up to leave at 1:30, but couldn't due to the rain, and waited for somewhere between 3 and 5 minutes. I've always taken that to mean they waited 3-5 minutes after 1:30 (so until 1:33-1:35) in order to let the rain let up before venturing out. The couple, therefore, appear to be sheltering as best they can from that same rain. At least, that's my take on it.

              Was he aware of the lower end of the time window when he spoke?
              Didn't Lawende and Levy speak after Sequeira - thus there was no probable lower time bound until then, other than Watkins 1:30 visit?
              We're talking a few minutes at most. Even if he didn't know of Levy and Lawende's testimony, he's probably going to be aware that Watkins didn't see anyone, so there must have been some amount of time following Watkins patrol and Eddowes and JtR entering the square. Too close to Watkins patrol and it might appear he's saying Watkins should have seen/heard them. And he also may be aware of the statements of Levey and/or Lawende too. We have too little information to be sure of these things, so can't really make strong claims (i.e. we can't say he didn't know anymore than we can say he definitely knew - we're stuck with "he could have known vs he might not have known", and that's never very satisfying, and certainly impossible to draw conclusions from. At best, we can try and decide which might be more probable, but that's always going to be a subjective call.

              - Jeff

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

                That's probably the case, but since Watkin's had a watch that he consulted, not really applicable here. PC Harvey doesn't appear to have had one, and based his times on the Post Office clock on each cycle of his beat (I have some memory of people suggesting he could check it twice per beat, but I have many memories that are not true).
                It is very applicable to PC Harvey though, especially if it is the sound of his footsteps, and/or the light of his lantern, that signify to Jack that it's time to leave.

                The general consensus is that MM conflated the Met Police who testified a possible sighting of Stride and a man with Eddowes' murder of the same night, transposing the PC to the City Police as a result. There doesn't appear to be any recorded evidence of a City Police officer indicating a possible sighting of Eddowes' with JtR. Either the evidence has been lost, which we cannot know, or MM was mistaken as tends to be argued.
                Both MM and Sagar mention the possibility of a City PC witnessing a man who was probably JtR.
                If there is no surviving evidence that suggests both men were wrong, there cannot really be a consensus to that affect.

                Morris was cleaning/sweeping the warehouse floor. He apparently opened it a few minutes before Watkins called on him in order to sweep things out of the building. Morris, being an ex-policeman, may have had a nightly cuppa with Watkins (particularly on a night when it would be cold and wet), so that's possible too. Of course, the two options aren't mutually exclusive, and he could easily have been sweeping up and expecting Watkins at the same time.
                As the door was inward opening (Watkins pushed it), I don't see how this would have helped with Morris's sweeping.
                Will leave the second option until next post.

                I think it's self evident why Jack would flee isn't it? Or do you mean how did he know Harvey was even there? I suppose, though all he has to do is hear Havey approaching up the ally, or see his lantern as you suggest, etc. PC Harvey reports doing this patrol a few minutes before hearing Morris blow his whistle, and Morris indicates that Watkin's showed up shortly after he opened the door to sweep things out (but didn't look into the yard). So the door opening and PC Harvey's arrival are hard to know which came first as they appear to be on the heels of each other. So it is possible JtR flees due to the door opening, just before PC Harvey comes up the passage.
                I agree the timings look to be very close, but there is a problem...

                Evening Standard, Oct 1:

                Morris, the night watchman, in the course of an interview, said:- "About a quarter to two o'clock the policeman upon the beat came and knocked at the door of the warehouse. I answered. He said, 'For God's sake, man, come out and assist me; another woman has been ripped open.' I said 'All right, keep yourself cool while I light a lamp.' Having done so, he led me to the south-west corner, where I saw a woman lying stretched upon the pavement, with her throat cut, and horribly mutilated. I then left the constable, Watkins, with the body, while I went into Aldgate and blew my whistle, and other police-officers soon made their appearance. The whole shape of the woman was marked out in blood upon the pavement. In addition to her throat being cut, there were two slashes across the face, one almost completely severing the nose. The woman was so mutilated about the face I could not say what she was like. She wore a dark skirt and a black bonnet. Altogether her appearance was exceedingly shabby. The strangest part of the whole thing is that I heard no sound. As a rule, I can hear the footstep of the policeman as he passes by every quarter of an hour, so the woman could not have uttered any sound without my detecting it."
                If Jack walks off immediately the door is opened, Morris should be able to hear it.
                Alternatively, if Jack walks off immediately on hearing and/or seeing Harvey approach, Morris should still be able to hear it, regardless of the position of the door. Harvey should possibly hear it too. Neither do, of course.
                The bottom line is; Morris can usually hear a PC on his beat walking by, when he is inside with the door closed - he should therefore sense the Ripper leaving, regardless of the reason for leaving.
                Perhaps Jack had rubber souls?

                I believe Lawende and Levey both testify they got up to leave at 1:30, but couldn't due to the rain, and waited for somewhere between 3 and 5 minutes. I've always taken that to mean they waited 3-5 minutes after 1:30 (so until 1:33-1:35) in order to let the rain let up before venturing out. The couple, therefore, appear to be sheltering as best they can from that same rain. At least, that's my take on it.
                Here are a couple of quotes from the Daily News, Oct 12:

                Lawende: On the night of the 29th I was in the Imperial Club, with Mr. Joseph Levy and Mr. Harry Harris. We could not get home because it was raining. At half past one we left to go out, and left the house about five minutes later. We saw a man and a woman at the corner of Church passage...
                Coroner: By what did you fix the time?
                Lawende: By seeing the club clock and my own watch. It was five minutes after the half hour when we came out, and to the best of my belief it was twenty five to two when we saw these persons.
                Levy: I was with the last witness and Harris at the Imperial Club on the 29th, and left with them about half past one. It might be about three or four minutes past the half hour when we came out. I saw a man and woman standing at the corner of Church passage...
                So Lawende's times look the most accurate - he compared the club clock to his watch.
                It would appear then, that the men notice the rain has stopped at 1:30, get up to leave, fix the bill, and leave pretty much right on 1:35.
                Why are the couple still on the corner of the passage, in that case, if the rain had stopped at least 5 minutes prior?

                We're talking a few minutes at most.
                Agreed. I would suppose 1 minute. However, this is a very tight situation!
                Also, if Watkins return time into the square is more like 1:42-43, we are talking 12-13 minutes before Sequiera arrives.
                That's kind of a long time!

                Even if he didn't know of Levy and Lawende's testimony, he's probably going to be aware that Watkins didn't see anyone, so there must have been some amount of time following Watkins patrol and Eddowes and JtR entering the square. Too close to Watkins patrol and it might appear he's saying Watkins should have seen/heard them. And he also may be aware of the statements of Levey and/or Lawende too. We have too little information to be sure of these things, so can't really make strong claims (i.e. we can't say he didn't know anymore than we can say he definitely knew - we're stuck with "he could have known vs he might not have known", and that's never very satisfying, and certainly impossible to draw conclusions from. At best, we can try and decide which might be more probable, but that's always going to be a subjective call.
                Fine with that, although let's be clear on what Sequiera said:

                Coroner: How long do you think life had been extinct?
                Sequiera: Only a very few minutes; probably not more than a quarter of an hour, on account of the condition of the blood.
                So the probable range is estimated to be 3 to 15 minutes back from 1:55 - that is, 1:40-1:52.
                The clotting of the blood does not allow for an earlier time, and Sequiera seems to prefer the later time to the earliest.
                Did Watkins really walk back into the square at 1:43-44?
                Last edited by NotBlamedForNothing; 03-10-2020, 11:20 AM.
                Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                Comment


                • We need a better idea as to what time Watkins really entered the square when he discovers the body, and how things operate between he and George Morris.

                  Evening Standard, Oct 1:

                  The murder in Mitre-square is similar in its brutality to that of Annie Chapman. The victim was an unfortunate woman, so poor that robbery could not possibly be suggested as a motive. The scene of the crime - Mitre-square, Aldgate - is an essentially business place during the day, but during the night it may be described as secluded. The main approach is from Mitre-street, running direct from Aldgate, while the square may also be entered by a narrow court, called Church-passage, Duke-street, adjoining the Great Synagogue on the one side, and from another passage of a similar description in St. James's-place on the other side. The square in dimensions is very small; but it contains several blocks of buildings, the most prominent being those of Messrs. Horner and Co., chemists and druggists, and Messrs. Kearley and Tonge, tea merchants. The arrangements of the City Police at this point, and perhaps, owing to the late murders, are said to be very precise, and the circuit of the beat would not extend over eleven minutes. In addition to this, the men were in close touch with each other, and thereby able to have ready communication.

                  On this occasion the officer on duty was Police-constable Watkins, 145. At half past one o'clock Watkins handed a can of tea to the watchman at Messrs. Kearley's named Geo. Jas. Morris, a naval pensioner, telling him to make it hot in ten minutes' time, when he would be round again. Having made the circuit of the square Watkins left, paraded his beat, and returned at a quarter to two. On entering the square by Mitre-street, he observed by the flickering light of the street lamp, something lying in the south-west corner close to a hoarding, seven or eight feet high, running at the back of Messrs. Taylor and Co., picture frame makers, 8 and 9, Mitre-street. Getting closer to the object, he saw it was a woman, and at once shouted to the watchman to come over. The man immediately came, and, seeing how matters stood, without hesitation made his way to the main thoroughfare, freely blowing a constable's whistle on the route. In a few minutes a large number of police and others were on the spot, in addition to a constable named Pearce, a caretaker at a building about twenty-five yards from the scene of the crime. As the word passed along the Lane, officers from different routes came hurrying up; but early intimation having been conveyed to Bishopsgate Police-station, Chief Superintendent Major Smith, Superintendent Foster, Inspector M'Williams and Inspector Collard immediately organised a "scouting" brigade, to detect and arrest any suspicious looking character. The efforts of the men, however, were unsuccessful.
                  So apparently there were unofficial tea breaks by the beat police, with the night-watchmen.

                  I would suggest this timeline:

                  1:30:00 Watkins enters Mitre Square and looks over about half of it
                  1:30:30 Watkins knocks on door of K&T warehouse. Morris opens. The men have a very brief chat and Morris takes Watkins' tea can
                  1:31:30 Watkins looks over remainder of the square
                  1:32:00 Watkins leaves the square
                  1:44:45 Watkins may witness a man leaving the square
                  1:45:00 Watkins returns to the square
                  1:45:15 Watkins discovers body and runs to door
                  1:45:30 Morris grabs his lantern (and whistle?) and comes outside
                  1:45:45 Men have a brief look at body, surroundings, glance around the square, and decide what to do
                  1:46:30 Morris runs off for assistance
                  1:47:00 Watkins decides to fix his entry time to 1:44, based on 1:30 + max beat time (14 minutes)
                  Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
                    We need a better idea as to what time Watkins really entered the square when he discovers the body, and how things operate between he and George Morris.

                    Evening Standard, Oct 1:



                    So apparently there were unofficial tea breaks by the beat police, with the night-watchmen.

                    I would suggest this timeline:

                    1:30:00 Watkins enters Mitre Square and looks over about half of it
                    1:30:30 Watkins knocks on door of K&T warehouse. Morris opens. The men have a very brief chat and Morris takes Watkins' tea can
                    1:31:30 Watkins looks over remainder of the square
                    1:32:00 Watkins leaves the square
                    1:44:45 Watkins may witness a man leaving the square
                    1:45:00 Watkins returns to the square
                    1:45:15 Watkins discovers body and runs to door
                    1:45:30 Morris grabs his lantern (and whistle?) and comes outside
                    1:45:45 Men have a brief look at body, surroundings, glance around the square, and decide what to do
                    1:46:30 Morris runs off for assistance
                    1:47:00 Watkins decides to fix his entry time to 1:44, based on 1:30 + max beat time (14 minutes)
                    Here is another scenario In The Times Newspaper Watkins is quoted as saying that the time of 1.44 am was the time he noted after he had found the body and had then run across the square to alert the night watchman who was at the premises of Kearley and Tonge. So in effect, it could have been 1.43 am when he entered the square and found the body,

                    The truth is that we do not know what times were accurate and can safely be relied upon. Those who believe the killer had time to do all that he is supposed to have done will manipulate the timings in their own way in an attempt to prove this. They will ignore Lawendes time of 1.35 am in favour of the other witness who is not so accurate and states it may have been 1.33am. But whichever time is the correct one, if those two seen standing at the entrance to the square were the killer and Eddowes then we do not have any idea as to what time they left that spot and walked into the square. and there lies the conundrum.

                    www.trevormarriott.co.uk



                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                      Here is another scenario In The Times Newspaper Watkins is quoted as saying that the time of 1.44 am was the time he noted after he had found the body and had then run across the square to alert the night watchman who was at the premises of Kearley and Tonge. So in effect, it could have been 1.43 am when he entered the square and found the body,
                      Yes, I agree with that logic, it's just the earlier the time of discovery, the greater are these 2 problems:
                      • The blood seems too liquid for the murder to have occurred before 1:40, and that time is at one extreme of the probability curve. When we're talking about an exit from the square no later than 1:42:30 (to not be seen or heard), the condition of the blood is an issue, regardless of what Jack does or does not extract from the victim's body.
                      • The 12 minute gap from 1:43 (discovery of body) to 1:55 (arrival of Sequeira), seems too long. Unless Dr Sequeira is also Mr Hyde, I can't see why he would arrive later than 10 minutes after the discovery time. In the timeline I suggested, there is 8 minutes from the point Morris heads off, to Sequeira's arrival, which should include plenty of time for the young doctor to get himself out of bed and dressed and out the door.

                      The truth is that we do not know what times were accurate and can safely be relied upon. Those who believe the killer had time to do all that he is supposed to have done will manipulate the timings in their own way in an attempt to prove this. They will ignore Lawendes time of 1.35 am in favour of the other witness who is not so accurate and states it may have been 1.33am. But whichever time is the correct one, if those two seen standing at the entrance to the square were the killer and Eddowes then we do not have any idea as to what time they left that spot and walked into the square. and there lies the conundrum.
                      All I'm attempting to 'prove', is that the situation is so time tight that we can't discount the possibility that Watkins walked by Jack, as they entered and exited the square.
                      I tend to accept the estimated time of death range, when the death is very close in time to the estimate. This would be the opposite of supposing Jack has heaps of time to extract organs.
                      Lawende's time gives Jack less time before Watkins returns, than Levy's does - I would have thought you would therefore favor Lawende's time?

                      I'm really not sure about the couple seen by the 3 men, being Jack and Eddowes, anyway.
                      How are things supposed to work - does Jack look over Kate's shoulder and down the passage, noticing Watkins lantern, as the PC traverses the square?
                      If yes, then why are they still at the start of the passage at 1:35, if Watkins is out of the square by 1:32 or earlier?
                      If no, then is Jack just going to take a massive gamble, and hope they go into the square and he leaves, while the beat PC is somewhere else?
                      That seems far too risky.
                      The other alternative is that Jack and Kate do not enter via Church passage at all - and the 3 men either see another couple, or 2 of 3 are making up a story.
                      Last edited by NotBlamedForNothing; 03-10-2020, 02:37 PM.
                      Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                        Yes, I agree with that logic, it's just the earlier the time of discovery, the greater are these 2 problems:
                        • The blood seems too liquid for the murder to have occurred before 1:40, and that time is at one extreme of the probability curve. When we're talking about an exit from the square no later than 1:42:30 (to not be seen or heard), the condition of the blood is an issue, regardless of what Jack does or does not extract from the victim's body.
                        • The 12 minute gap from 1:43 (discovery of body) to 1:55 (arrival of Sequeira), seems too long. Unless Dr Sequeira is also Mr Hyde, I can't see why he would arrive later than 10 minutes after the discovery time. In the timeline I suggested, there is 8 minutes from the point Morris heads off, to Sequeira's arrival, which should include plenty of time for the young doctor to get himself out of bed and dressed and out the door.



                        All I'm attempting to 'prove', is that the situation is so time tight that we can't discount the possibility that Watkins walked by Jack, as they entered and exited the square.
                        I tend to accept the estimated time of death range, when the death is very close in time to the estimate. This would be the opposite of supposing Jack has heaps of time to extract organs.
                        Lawende's time gives Jack less time before Watkins returns, than Levy's does - I would have thought you would therefore favor Lawende's time?

                        I'm really not sure about the couple seen by the 3 men, being Jack and Eddowes, anyway.
                        How are things supposed to work - does Jack look over Kate's shoulder and down the passage, noticing Watkins lantern, as the PC traverses the square?
                        If yes, then why are they still at the start of the passage at 1:35, if Watkins is out of the square by 1:32 or earlier?
                        If no, then is Jack just going to take a massive gamble, and hope they go into the square and he leaves, while the beat PC is somewhere else?
                        That seems far too risky.
                        The other alternative is that Jack and Kate do not enter via Church passage at all - and the 3 men either see another couple, or 2 of 3 are making up a story.
                        You havent allowed for Harveys time, which with him coming down the passage towards, and in full view of the killer, thus allowing him to escape, and anyone who belives the killer waited until Harvey had gone is totally deluded !

                        www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                          You havent allowed for Harveys time, which with him coming down the passage towards, and in full view of the killer, thus allowing him to escape, and anyone who belives the killer waited until Harvey had gone is totally deluded !

                          www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                          That's because I'm still thinking about Harvey's beat
                          At this stage however, I really only see two possibilities:
                          1. Harvey goes down the passage at ~1:42, by which time Jack has left. For this to be true, and for the 3 men to have seen J & K, Jack has from (at the most) 1:36 to 1:41:30 to reach the murder location, murder, mutilate, and leave the square. That's 5 minutes tops. Probably just 5. Can he get organs out in that timespan? Probably not. Also, why can't Harvey see the body, regardless of Jack being there?
                          2. Harvey is not due to go down the passage until after Morris heads out of the square with his whistle, which my estimate above has at 1:46:30. Is it possible Harvey will not otherwise go down the passage until about 1:47? I need to study his beat more...

                          In #883 the quote contains this snippet:

                          On entering the square by Mitre-street, he observed by the flickering light of the street lamp, something lying in the south-west corner close to a hoarding, seven or eight feet high, running at the back of Messrs. Taylor and Co., picture frame makers, 8 and 9, Mitre-street.

                          What is this 7 or 8' hoarding?
                          Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                            That's because I'm still thinking about Harvey's beat
                            At this stage however, I really only see two possibilities:
                            1. Harvey goes down the passage at ~1:42, by which time Jack has left. For this to be true, and for the 3 men to have seen J & K, Jack has from (at the most) 1:36 to 1:41:30 to reach the murder location, murder, mutilate, and leave the square. That's 5 minutes tops. Probably just 5. Can he get organs out in that timespan? Probably not. Also, why can't Harvey see the body, regardless of Jack being there?
                            2. Harvey is not due to go down the passage until after Morris heads out of the square with his whistle, which my estimate above has at 1:46:30. Is it possible Harvey will not otherwise go down the passage until about 1:47? I need to study his beat more...

                            In #883 the quote contains this snippet:

                            On entering the square by Mitre-street, he observed by the flickering light of the street lamp, something lying in the south-west corner close to a hoarding, seven or eight feet high, running at the back of Messrs. Taylor and Co., picture frame makers, 8 and 9, Mitre-street.

                            What is this 7 or 8' hoarding?
                            Harvey entered the passage where a street lamp was as he walked down the passage he would have been blinded by the lamp outside Kearley and Tonge. The killer would have been in the dark and would have seen and heard Harvey coming. Harvey would not have been able to see that distance to the murder scene because his eyes would have not yet adjusted to the darkness from the street lamps

                            www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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                            • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                              That's because I'm still thinking about Harvey's beat
                              At this stage however, I really only see two possibilities:
                              1. Harvey goes down the passage at ~1:42, by which time Jack has left. For this to be true, and for the 3 men to have seen J & K, Jack has from (at the most) 1:36 to 1:41:30 to reach the murder location, murder, mutilate, and leave the square. That's 5 minutes tops. Probably just 5. Can he get organs out in that timespan? Probably not. Also, why can't Harvey see the body, regardless of Jack being there?
                              2. Harvey is not due to go down the passage until after Morris heads out of the square with his whistle, which my estimate above has at 1:46:30. Is it possible Harvey will not otherwise go down the passage until about 1:47? I need to study his beat more...

                              In #883 the quote contains this snippet:

                              On entering the square by Mitre-street, he observed by the flickering light of the street lamp, something lying in the south-west corner close to a hoarding, seven or eight feet high, running at the back of Messrs. Taylor and Co., picture frame makers, 8 and 9, Mitre-street.

                              What is this 7 or 8' hoarding?
                              Hi NTBN,

                              None of the times are carved in stone. It appears to me that Lawende checked his watch/club clock at 1:30 (now, whether that was 1:28, 29, 30, 31, 32? who knows, he's not a cop, just someone getting up to leave the club. We read watches and clocks to the nearest 5 minute mark, the police read the exact time as it was their responsibility to do so). No, I don't know Lawende did that, but it's common for people to do so, so we have to keep that in mind.

                              But, we have his stated time as 1:30, so we work with that. Then, however, he estimates how long they waited before moving off. His inquest testimony reads "We left there to go out at 1/2 past one and we left the house about 5 minutes later." and Levy's reads "We got up to go home at 1/2 past one. We came out about 3 or 4 minutes after the half hour.", again, another estimate. Different people will make different estimates of how much time went by, and who are we to say which was more accurate? Therefore, the best we can do is place the sighting of the couple in the range of 1:33-1:35. You could split the difference and work based upon 1:34 or work based on considering the implications of either extreme and see if it makes a difference. (note, I'm not factoring in the stuff in the first paragraph here at all, that's just a reminder that even times based upon looking at a clock have the potential for error).

                              As for PC Harvey, the very first post of this thread shows a map I put together based upon a simple simulation I ran many years ago. Basically, I used the testimony of Watkins and Harvey, whose beats were known and presented here on the boards, and wrote a program that would let me visualize where they would be. All I needed was the beat, and either their known patrol time (PC Watkins indicates it took him 14 minutes) or two locations on their beat where they were known to be at a particular time. That way, I could work out their average speed, and estimate roughly where they should be at all other times. And, when I did that, PC Harvey ends up patrolling Church Passage at 1:41 (as he estimated), and at 1:44 he's heading back towards Duke street, which is where he testifies he was when the whistle blows (at 1:45 he just passes it). Now, this is just a simple recreation, and while it doesn't prove (nor claim to prove), to be 100% accurate, it does show that there's nothing odd in the testimony. The recreation does put people in the appropriate positions at the times they said they were there if walking at the speed required to complete their patrols in that given amount of time. So, based upon that, your notions that PC Harvey's "awareness of time" is probably pretty good appears well founded. Also, if JtR simply walks off at the same speed as the patrolling police, he can be out of the square into Mitre Street, and out of sight before PC Harvey reaches the end of Church Passage (that's setting JtR to leave at the point PC Harvey starts to enter), so obviously if JtR ups the pace over that of a patrolling PC (who patrolled at a slower than average pace), he has plenty of time to exit the scene if he's aware of PC Harvey's approach. Also, PC Watkins at that time is not in position to see JtR as he's approaching Aldgate/Mitre street, and won't turn into Mitre Street for about another minute and a half (I've assumed JtR fled north on Mitre; haven't worked out what would happen if he fled south, toward's Aldgate, but eyeballing it it does look like PC Watkins would pass JtR as JtR exits Mitre Street and PC Watkins enters. While like anything, recreations are just estimates, but they can allow us to get a feel for how internally consistent the testified times and so forth are, and the two PC's do appear reliable enough for us to work with their stated times and positions. And that allows us to test various ideas to see which are possible (no, they don't prove any of them, but they can indicate which ones are improbable). Like so many things JtR, there are a number of ideas proposed by a wide range of people which are all possible (i.e. different routes for JtR to exit, different times for him to depart, etc) - and yet surprisingly, people are convinced their particular idea is the one out of the many that is correct. I try and view it as "any of these fit the data, so all are equally good ideas", which is why I think we need new evidence more than new ideas (though of course, the latter are not unwelcome).

                              As for Morris opening the door, doesn't matter which way the door opens, he can open it inwards a few inches, place a door stop sweep things out. That would be common practice. And a nightly cuppa would not surprise me, though I think the PC could get into trouble if caught doing it, but people are people and I'm sure such things were done (particularly as I'm sure walking a beat was not generally the most exciting duty).

                              Anyway, have a look at the very first post of this thread. I know it's hard to read and make sense of things - my sense of aesthetics has been missing for years, if you see it, please send it home.

                              - Jeff

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                                Harvey entered the passage where a street lamp was as he walked down the passage he would have been blinded by the lamp outside Kearley and Tonge. The killer would have been in the dark and would have seen and heard Harvey coming. Harvey would not have been able to see that distance to the murder scene because his eyes would have not yet adjusted to the darkness from the street lamps

                                www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                                Hi Trevor,

                                I agree fully with this assessment, and have argued the same thing as well. It would fully and naturally account for how JtR could get out of the square without being seen by PC Harvey - it's not magic, it's how the human visual system works. Also added to that, PC Harvey is patrolling Church Passage, so his attention will be on locations within the passage itself, and less focused on things inside Mitre Square, which was not part of his beat. JtR has a greater chance of being aware of PC Harvey than PC Harvey has of being aware of JtR.

                                - Jeff

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