Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi packers stem,



Which means you're assuming that he lied when he said there was sufficient light for JtR to do what he did, despite the fact that he was there, despite the fact that there is testimony that indicates he had the opportunity to make the very observation he testified under oath, and despite the fact that even in the dark one can see things right in front of them.

All I'm assuming is that someone who was there to examine the body at the crime scene, who had an opportunity to make a trivial observation that they testified to, actually observed what they claimed. In other words, I'm just looking at the information we have and noting that it doesn't contradict itself and so I have no basis to consider it inaccurate. You are assuming that despite the testimony all being consistent, it is inaccurate anyway.

Otherwise, we might as well just ignore all the testimony when it suits us. I find that approach unhelpful in trying to understand what happened. And without first understanding what happened, and the basic circumstances under which it happened, there's no hope of making any inferences beyond that.

- Jeff

As has been said many time before there are many ambiguities through the whole inquest testimonies, not just with this murder but all of the others which were never fully clarified.

In this case take Sequeira`s testimony he states " Where the murder was committed was probably the darkest part of the square, but there was sufficient light to enable the miscreant to perpetrate the deed. The emphasis being on the word deed, which I would suggest simply referred to the murder and the mutilations!

Dr Sequeira was it seems interviewed by the press at some time thereafter, and certainly before the post mortem, where the organs were found to be missing, because in an interview with a Star reporter, which appeared in the final edition dated Oct 1st he was asked a specific question by the reporter “How long would it have taken him (the killer) to mutilate the body as you found it” Sequeira states “three minutes”. Obviously he makes no mention of any organs being found missing because at the time of the interview they were not known to be missing.

Brown was asked the same question perhaps at the same time and he states "At least 5 minutes"

So this 5 minute window which so many rely on for the killer to do all that he is purported to have done is totally unsafe in my opinion

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[Michael W Richards]

Trevor, I think the cuts to Catharine show an escalation in his post-mortem mutilation, begun with Annie Chapman who had more mutilations than Mary Ann Nichols. That he was disturbed before he finishing, explains why he waited a month before attacking Mary Kelly. Jack needed to save money to hire a prostitute with her own room.

Alicia, if I may address this....the escalation you describe is in effect meaningless. The extra cuts served no purpose. Other than symbolic perhaps. Annies killer cut only what he had to in order to access her uterus and cut it out..."there were no meaningless cuts". In Kates case he cut her nose, her face, her apron, a section of her colon...none of these actions were a requisite to obtaining a kidney. There were meaningless cuts made to Kate, in that context.

Secondly, there is no evidence any interruption occurred in either Mitre Square or Berner Street that night, though people would like to imagine one to explain some elements away.

Lastly, Mary had occupied that room with Barnett from the beginning, and he had only been gone since Tuesday night. The only recorded male other than Barnett in that room is Blotchy the night she is killed....there is no precedent for claims that she ever brought any clients into that room, and there is evidence that she hadn't been working the streets much in the weeks leading up to the murder either. The arrears and Joe still giving her money daily even after leaving that room is some proof of that.

Whomever killed Mary, it was not likely her "client".

[DJA]

Joseph Barnett had been out of work for 3 or 4 months and was not supporting Mary Kelly after he moved out.

[Michael W Richards]

Joseph Barnett had been out of work for 3 or 4 months and was not supporting Mary Kelly after he moved out.

Joseph Barnett said he gave Mary money, and he apologized for not having some for her on that Thursday night. Again, so there are no misrepresentations made that confuse some who don't know these cases.

"....called to see her between seven and eight pm Thursday (8th) and told her I was very sorry I had no work and that I could not give her any money."

"...for the last eight months in Millers Court, until last Tuesday week (30 ulto) when in consequence of not earning sufficient money to give her...."

[JeffHamm]

As has been said many time before there are many ambiguities through the whole inquest testimonies, not just with this murder but all of the others which were never fully clarified.

In this case take Sequeira`s testimony he states " Where the murder was committed was probably the darkest part of the square, but there was sufficient light to enable the miscreant to perpetrate the deed. The emphasis being on the word deed, which I would suggest simply referred to the murder and the mutilations!

Dr Sequeira was it seems interviewed by the press at some time thereafter, and certainly before the post mortem, where the organs were found to be missing, because in an interview with a Star reporter, which appeared in the final edition dated Oct 1st he was asked a specific question by the reporter “How long would it have taken him (the killer) to mutilate the body as you found it” Sequeira states “three minutes”. Obviously he makes no mention of any organs being found missing because at the time of the interview they were not known to be missing.

Brown was asked the same question perhaps at the same time and he states "At least 5 minutes"

So this 5 minute window which so many rely on for the killer to do all that he is purported to have done is totally unsafe in my opinion

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Given the times given are for the murder, the facial mutilations, and the disemboweling with intestines placed, and possessions scattered, etc, the only cuts remaining to do are to slice a membrane and remove the kidney and a cut to do a botched job of removing the uterus (well, remove most of it as some was left behind). These two additional bits of mutilations would add relatively little time to what was already done, making the 3-5 minutes given by contemporary medical professionals the range we have to work with as medical opinion of the day. Remember, everything else that is reported was done and was visible, and so all of that activity is covered by their estimations. So it's just the final act of removing the kidney and partial removal of the uterus that one could say needs a bit of extra time, but I fail to see why those last steps would greatly modify either of their estimations to the point of calling them "unsafe", other than the always available out of "all estimations are unsafe" and we all know that, yet their estimations are what they gave and what we have to consider with respect to their importance.

- Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

I agree in principle with that synopsis Jeff, but I don't believe its necessary to imagine he only had 5 minutes. Because I don't believe Lawende saw Kate. Add 5 or 10 minutes as possible alone time and all the problems with everything being done super quickly go away.

Im reluctant to accept that short window if in fact he did see Kate though. To get from the spot outside the square...there is no suggesting by any of the three wise men that the couple were in the process of moving anywhere when they passed, at around 1:35... and to be found inside the square in near darkness at around 1:43-44 in my opinion doesn't allow enough time. When the actual spot she dies on is so dark too...that just adds time.

[JeffHamm]

I agree in principle with that synopsis Jeff, but I don't believe its necessary to imagine he only had 5 minutes. Because I don't believe Lawende saw Kate. Add 5 or 10 minutes as possible alone time and all the problems with everything being done super quickly go away.

Im reluctant to accept that short window if in fact he did see Kate though. To get from the spot outside the square...there is no suggesting by any of the three wise men that the couple were in the process of moving anywhere when they passed, at around 1:35... and to be found inside the square in near darkness at around 1:43-44 in my opinion doesn't allow enough time. When the actual spot she dies on is so dark too...that just adds time.

Even if Lawende and Levy did not see Eddowes (entirely possible), the square was patrolled at 1:30 and no body there. Lawende and Levy state they were going to leave at 1:30 but waited until the rain stopped at 1:33 (Levey) or 1:35 (Lawende). In either case, it seems unlikely that Eddowes would be doing anything other than sheltering at that time as well, so even if the couple isn't Eddowes and JtR, they were probably sheltering somewhere else near one of the other potential entrances to Mitre Square (yet not seen by anyone).

Lawende's group did not look back once they passed the couple, so they could very well have also started to move on at that time, just after Lawende et co passed them (we don't know when they moved - we do know that they aren't reported as being there when Church Passage is patrolled a short time later by PC Harvey).

The body is discovered around 1:44, so 1:33 (Levy's time) until 1:44 is an 11 minute window. PC Harvey reports he patrolled Church Passage a couple minutes before that, so we have as much as a 9 minute window. If we go by Lawende's time (1:35), then that's still 7 minutes. It's tight, but not shorter than the estimated times for the murder (even allowing for the walk into position, which from Church Passage would be about 30 seconds at an average walking pace).

Basically, all I'm suggesting is that from the end of the rain, as testified by Levy and Lawende, until the discovery of the body by PC Watkins, indicates the maximum probable time window available to the murder. PC Harvey's patrol of Church Passage makes for a good reason to shave a couple minutes off that as JtR in all probability fled as PC Harvey came up Church Passage. (If he didn't, then either PC Harvey didn't quite patrol to the end of Church Passage but just to the point where he could see there was nothing in the passage for him to concern himself with, based upon the lamp at that location. He would not have spotted anything in Mitre Square if he did that (and it would fulfill his patrol duties, and given the rain, he might cut a few of these sections short to get back on time if he sheltered a few minutes during it - but that is of course speculation on my part).

So basically, it looks like there's between 7 and 9 minutes available.

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

Even if Lawende and Levy did not see Eddowes (entirely possible), the square was patrolled at 1:30 and no body there. Lawende and Levy state they were going to leave at 1:30 but waited until the rain stopped at 1:33 (Levey) or 1:35 (Lawende). In either case, it seems unlikely that Eddowes would be doing anything other than sheltering at that time as well, so even if the couple isn't Eddowes and JtR, they were probably sheltering somewhere else near one of the other potential entrances to Mitre Square (yet not seen by anyone).

Lawende's group did not look back once they passed the couple, so they could very well have also started to move on at that time, just after Lawende et co passed them (we don't know when they moved - we do know that they aren't reported as being there when Church Passage is patrolled a short time later by PC Harvey).

The body is discovered around 1:44, so 1:33 (Levy's time) until 1:44 is an 11 minute window. PC Harvey reports he patrolled Church Passage a couple minutes before that, so we have as much as a 9 minute window. If we go by Lawende's time (1:35), then that's still 7 minutes. It's tight, but not shorter than the estimated times for the murder (even allowing for the walk into position, which from Church Passage would be about 30 seconds at an average walking pace).

Basically, all I'm suggesting is that from the end of the rain, as testified by Levy and Lawende, until the discovery of the body by PC Watkins, indicates the maximum probable time window available to the murder. PC Harvey's patrol of Church Passage makes for a good reason to shave a couple minutes off that as JtR in all probability fled as PC Harvey came up Church Passage. (If he didn't, then either PC Harvey didn't quite patrol to the end of Church Passage but just to the point where he could see there was nothing in the passage for him to concern himself with, based upon the lamp at that location. He would not have spotted anything in Mitre Square if he did that (and it would fulfill his patrol duties, and given the rain, he might cut a few of these sections short to get back on time if he sheltered a few minutes during it - but that is of course speculation on my part).

So basically, it looks like there's between 7 and 9 minutes available.

- Jeff

That seems like a reasonable assessment of time available to me Jeff. Might we also consider the possibility of clock times and watch times not being synchronised or someone looking at a clock from an angle and slightly misreading it? Couldn’t this raise at least the reasonable possibility of an extra minute or two of available time? So the ripper might have had 10 or 11 minutes?

[JeffHamm]

That seems like a reasonable assessment of time available to me Jeff. Might we also consider the possibility of clock times and watch times not being synchronised or someone looking at a clock from an angle and slightly misreading it? Couldn’t this raise at least the reasonable possibility of an extra minute or two of available time? So the ripper might have had 10 or 11 minutes?

Yes, that's possible but unfortunately unknowable. It also could work the other way, taking off a minute or two. Without information about the various clocks "relative timing", we are just left with having to remember that the times have to be viewed with some caution.

At the beginning of this thread I presented where PC Watkins and PC Harvey would be expected to be found during their patrol (on the basis of their testified times and locations and how long their patrol took to complete a cycle, etc), and from that, PC Harvey's testified times, and his expected locations, etc, correspond to where he reports being when the whistle was heard. So, his time and Watkin's times seem to be close enough that any error of synchronization is within the expected margin of error.

Lawnede and Levey's times, based upon the club clock I think, are unknown. If they actually got up at, say, 1:28, then 3-5 minutes delay waiting for the rain puts their sighting at 1:31-1:33, but if they got up at 1:32, then the window closes. Without knowing, though, one has to go with their testimony as a starting point. To me, whether their sighting was of Eddowes or not, given their testimony tells us when the downpour stopped, I think making their time "later" becomes problematic for the murder to happen at all. There isn't enough time to commit the murder and mutilations that are agreed upon, so even if the organs were not taken, as Trevor argues, there still has to be enough time to do what was uncontestedly done. I don't see the final acts of removing the kidney and uterus as adding any real significant amount of time over and above all the other mutilations though.

- Jeff

[Trevor Marriott]

Yes, that's possible but unfortunately unknowable. It also could work the other way, taking off a minute or two. Without information about the various clocks "relative timing", we are just left with having to remember that the times have to be viewed with some caution.

At the beginning of this thread I presented where PC Watkins and PC Harvey would be expected to be found during their patrol (on the basis of their testified times and locations and how long their patrol took to complete a cycle, etc), and from that, PC Harvey's testified times, and his expected locations, etc, correspond to where he reports being when the whistle was heard. So, his time and Watkin's times seem to be close enough that any error of synchronization is within the expected margin of error.

Lawnede and Levey's times, based upon the club clock I think, are unknown. If they actually got up at, say, 1:28, then 3-5 minutes delay waiting for the rain puts their sighting at 1:31-1:33, but if they got up at 1:32, then the window closes. Without knowing, though, one has to go with their testimony as a starting point. To me, whether their sighting was of Eddowes or not, given their testimony tells us when the downpour stopped, I think making their time "later" becomes problematic for the murder to happen at all. There isn't enough time to commit the murder and mutilations that are agreed upon, so even if the organs were not taken, as Trevor argues, there still has to be enough time to do what was uncontestedly done. I don't see the final acts of removing the kidney and uterus as adding any real significant amount of time over and above all the other mutilations though.

- Jeff

Jeff
we do not know the exact time the couple left the spot where they were seen standing.

Levy says he saw them standing at approx 1.33 or 1.34. Lawende says 1.35 they were seen. We have no evidence to show they were doing anything other than standing talking when they were seen.

They could have moved off as late as 1.37/38 in which case the time is reduced greatly, taking into account that the killer was probably disturbed by Pc Harvey as you suggest.

As stated the 5 minute window that is being used which was stated by Brown is unsafe to rely on because that 5 minute window was given to the press by Brown in an interview before the organs were found to be missing, in the same interview Sequira gives a time of 3 minutes, which we know was impossible for the killer to do all that he is supposed to have done, but time enough to just carry out the murder and the mutilations.

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[JeffHamm]

Jeff
we do not know the exact time the couple left the spot where they were seen standing.

Levy says he saw them standing at approx 1.33 or 1.34. Lawende says 1.35 they were seen. We have no evidence to show they were doing anything other than standing talking when they were seen.

They could have moved off as late as 1.37/38 in which case the time is reduced greatly, taking into account that the killer was probably disturbed by Pc Harvey as you suggest.

As stated the 5 minute window that is being used which was stated by Brown is unsafe to rely on because that 5 minute window was given to the press by Brown in an interview before the organs were found to be missing, in the same interview Sequira gives a time of 3 minutes, which we know was impossible for the killer to do all that he is supposed to have done, but time enough to just carry out the murder and the mutilations.

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Hi Trevor,

You sum up what I was saying nicely. We don't know for sure how long the couple was standing at Church Passage, or even if that couple was in fact Eddowes and JtR (they could, obviously, be two people unrelated to the murder entirely). All we know is that they were there at the time Levy and Lawende passed them, and by all accounts, not there when PC Harvey later patrols Church Passage (I believe he states he saw nobody, hence they were not there at that time). So, all we know is that they left at some point after Levy and Lawende walked past them, and before Harvey arrives. Which means, they could have left at the point Levy and Lawende walked past (which is different from saying they did leave at that time). When considering the events of the night we have to look at the unaccounted time window, and that starts from the point Lawende and Levy walk past that couple. From that point on, we don't know what happened or when. But if they are Eddowes and JtR, then they have to get to the murder site with enough time for the murder and mutilations to happen, and for JtR to get out of there without being spotted. It seems most likely that happens as PC Harvey comes up Church Passage, a couple minutes before PC Watkins makes his patrol and find the body, but again, we don't know that as a fact and there are reasonable series of events that would allow JtR to remain and allow for PC Harvey not to have noticed, and yet also trigger JtR to leave before Watkins arrive (i.e. Harvey doesn't patrol to the very end of Church Passage as the light at the end of it allows him to see there is nothing of interest at the far end; the door to the warehouse is opened shortly after, which spooks JtR, and he flees just before Watkins arrives). No, not saying that did happen, but it's something we have to consider. Mind you, even that might only add a minute to the time available.

And, as I say, given we both agree there has to be enough time to do all the mutilations with only the removal of the kidney and uterus themselves being debated, those final two steps are not something that I can see requiring a great deal of additional time. The kidney just requires slicing a membrane and pulling it out to cut the artery (a few seconds required) and the uterus, given it was an incomplete sectioning, also looks to require only one or two knife movements. So I see no appreciable amount of extra time required to take the organs over and above all the other activity that did occur. There has to be enough time to do all of the mutilations described, and once that time is available, removal of a kidney and partial removal of the uterus, add so little extra on top, that the time for that too must be available. Once you narrow the time to the point those can't be done, then the murder itself can't be done - but we're pretty sure Kate was murdered and mutilated on the spot, so all that does is rule out times - she had to have gotten there earlier than Time X type thing. And if that's the case, then it might indeed indicate that if Church Passage Couple = Eddowes and JtR, then yes, they had to move on pretty close to when Lawende and Levey passed them because much after that doesn't provide sufficient time for the murder to have occurred at all (or CPC <> Eddowes and JtR of course).

- Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

Jeff,

Its my understanding that Watkins last past through Mitre Square was about 15-20 minutes before he passed through at 12:43-:44, if that's true then the killer if in the square with Kate just after that....which would fit with the timing of her release a bit better I believe, then the killer might have had lots of time to do what was done and still get out before Watkins. Harvey for me is an issue,..Im not so sure he actually looked in the square when he says he did.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Perhaps Jack escaped through the door that George Morris had left open for him?

[Herlock Sholmes]

To create a scenario where the time available commit the murder and mutilations is reduced to a point where we might begin to question the very possibility, we have to assume things that we are unable assume as facts. But to assess whether the murder could have taken place we simply have to look at reasonable possibilities with no leaps of faith.

And so as Jeff has pointed out, the couple were seen (as per witnesses) sometime between 6.33-6.35. If it wasn’t Eddowes and her killer (which is at least a possibility) then we could allow a longer time for the murder. If it was them (which I think must be statistically stated as probable) then we have a starting point that we have no reason to question. They might have been wrong in some way of course. They might have both lied. They might have been out in their time’s by a minute or two. But we have nothing to point us in that direction of thinking.

Harvey’s time for checking Church Passage amounts to 1.42 (a couple of minutes before Watkins) Harvey might have lied about the rigour of this search of Church Passage. He might have been slightly out with his time. But we have nothing to point us in that direction of thinking.

Watkins stated that he’d discovered the body at 1.44. We know that he did this of course but yes he might have been out in his time by a minute or so but we have nothing to point us in that direction of thinking.

Therefore we have an earlier time for the couple being seen of 6.33 and we have to reasonably assume that Harvey would have seen the couple had they have been there at 6.42.

And so we have to ask ourselves which is the more reasonable, plausible even likely scenario?

a) that the Ripper killed Catherine elsewhere and for some unknown reason risks lugging her body into the corner of Mitre Square?

b) that the Ripper didn’t remove organs at the scene (despite doing it another murder) and that someone ‘stole’ them at the morgue from a body in the most high profile case ever?

or,

c) that Eddowes and the Ripper reached the corner of Mitre Square at 6.34ish and he scarpered when he heard Harvey’s approach at 6.42?

Where is the problem?

There simply isn’t one unless you have a vested interest in making it appear that this murder couldn’t have taken place in the time available. The evidence says otherwise though.

[Trevor Marriott]

Jeff,

Its my understanding that Watkins last past through Mitre Square was about 15-20 minutes before he passed through at 12:43-:44, if that's true then the killer if in the square with Kate just after that....which would fit with the timing of her release a bit better I believe, then the killer might have had lots of time to do what was done and still get out before Watkins. Harvey for me is an issue,..Im not so sure he actually looked in the square when he says he did.

In the absence of anything to disprove the original testimony it has to stand, despite clear conflict especially with times, you cant juggle times around to suit as some want to do, and you cant make up times to suit.

You can however give examples of variations in the times relative to the various witnesses, for example the couple seen standing at the entrance to Church Passage then examples can be given based on what time they could have entered the square .i.e 1.36-1.37. 1.38 and work from there thus giving a better indication as to how much time the killer would have had with the victim, and could he had done all that he is supposed to have done in that time?

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