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Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

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  • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

    hi Harry and Jeff
    it takes approx. 20 seconds to render someone unconscious with a blood choke-which can be done by manual strangulation which we have evidence the ripper did.
    Yes, that corresponds to what I've come across elsewhere (15-20 seconds to unconsciousness, but taking minutes of pressure to kill someone). JtR only has to get them unconscious as the throat cutting kills them after that.


    of course its difficult with a struggling victim, but these were women and not in the best of condition. theres also indications of blows to the head too with some of the victims. the ripper must have been a very powerful man who knew what he was doing in terms of physical confrontations, fights etc. and a very strong man strangling a women with his hands around their throat applying a lot of pressure would help stifle screams.
    he could have them unconscious and on the ground in mere seconds followed by the throat cut.

    and yes Im still surprised he was able to do it so quickly and stealthily.
    Yes, that all sounds very logical. Most of the victims were intoxicated (Nichols, Eddowes), or sick (Chapman), so not in the best condition to defend themselves against an attack, particularly against someone much stronger than they were, which does seem to be the case. Strangulation would prevent them from crying out, and I suppose the long dresses, reduce their ability to kick, etc, reducing the sounds of a struggle.

    - Jeff

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Dr. John Watson View Post

      I'm not sure how much validity one can place on Dr. Sequeira's estimate of the lighting at the exact spot where Eddowes' body was found. Was the area unlit when he first arrived?
      Hello Dr John

      I'm sure there'd have been two or three extra police lamps on site, but I'm sure Sequeira would have been able to mentally subtract them, so to speak. He was also familiar with the area as he lived nearby.
      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

      Comment


      • Talking of police lamps, something I've ruminated over the last couple of days...what if the killer had a lamp either the same or similar the ones the police had for night time beats? They were small and could be attached to the belt.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

          hi Harry and Jeff
          it takes approx. 20 seconds to render someone unconscious with a blood choke-which can be done by manual strangulation which we have evidence the ripper did.
          of course its difficult with a struggling victim, but these were women and not in the best of condition. theres also indications of blows to the head too with some of the victims. the ripper must have been a very powerful man who knew what he was doing in terms of physical confrontations, fights etc. and a very strong man strangling a women with his hands around their throat applying a lot of pressure would help stifle screams.
          he could have them unconscious and on the ground in mere seconds followed by the throat cut.

          and yes Im still surprised he was able to do it so quickly and stealthily.
          The military have used a garotte for decades, it is known as the great equalizer. It is correctly applied from behind, just incase anyone was wondering.
          A 110lb woman can bring down a 300lb gorilla (metaphorically speaking) using a correctly applied cord or garotte. Apart from faint gurgling at the mouth, the only other noise would the scuffling of the feet on the cobbles. Not a very noisy encounter. Certainly no ability to scream or call for help.
          So, the Ripper didn't need to have any superior strength.

          Medical evidence was found on a few of the victims which show they were strangled, yet not one of the victims bore thumb & finger pressure marks around the neck. So, he didn't use his hands, yet he did strangle or suffocate them.

          This is an actual garotte wound on the neck of a victim in a more recent murder.

          Last edited by Wickerman; 05-16-2019, 10:16 PM.
          Regards, Jon S.

          Comment


          • Hi Wickerman,

            Yes, the lack of bruising corresponding to manual strangulation has always concerned me, and I was wondering that as I wrote the previous post that included it in my description. At times I've wondered if an arm around the neck from behind type choke hold, allowing the victim to be lifted as well, might have worked (the arm as a ligature type thing)? But I don't know enough about what sort of marks that would leave to know if that can be ruled out or not. A ligature strangulation tends to leave very pronounced marks, as per the photo, and given the details the doctors do report (old bruising on Chapman from the fight over the soap, for example) makes me concerned about ligatures because there's nothing like that reported. While the throat cutting might obscure some of the mark, in the dark would be hard to cut along exactly in order to hide them completely. I agree, though, that strangulation was involved, it's just trying to work out how (rather than if) that was done based upon the reports we have is the mystery.

            - Jeff

            Comment


            • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
              Hi Wickerman,

              Yes, the lack of bruising corresponding to manual strangulation has always concerned me, and I was wondering that as I wrote the previous post that included it in my description. At times I've wondered if an arm around the neck from behind type choke hold, allowing the victim to be lifted as well, might have worked (the arm as a ligature type thing)?
              Hi Jeff.

              Using the armlock around the neck does require some strength, and is less effective with victims who have a lot of clothing around the neck, like the collars of jackets. Ideally, the neck should be bare, the arm needs to be tight against both sides of the neck not impeded by thick clothing.
              The coat sleeve of the killers jacket will also impede the effectiveness of the hold.
              The armlock does not affect breathing, but cuts off blood flow to the brain. We know from medical evidence that breathing was interfered with so I doubt this was the method.


              But I don't know enough about what sort of marks that would leave to know if that can be ruled out or not. A ligature strangulation tends to leave very pronounced marks, as per the photo, and given the details the doctors do report (old bruising on Chapman from the fight over the soap, for example) makes me concerned about ligatures because there's nothing like that reported. While the throat cutting might obscure some of the mark, in the dark would be hard to cut along exactly in order to hide them completely. I agree, though, that strangulation was involved, it's just trying to work out how (rather than if) that was done based upon the reports we have is the mystery.

              - Jeff
              Are you familiar with the suggestion of Dr Brownfield in the Mylett case?

              "If he cut the throat along the line of the cord he would obliterate the traces of partial strangulation."

              The whole interview is in this newspaper.
              https://www.casebook.org/press_repor...r/s881224.html
              Last edited by Wickerman; 05-17-2019, 01:46 AM.
              Regards, Jon S.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                Hi Jeff.

                Using the armlock around the neck does require some strength, and is less effective with victims who have a lot of clothing around the neck, like the collars of jackets. Ideally, the neck should be bare, the arm needs to be tight against both sides of the neck not impeded by thick clothing.
                The coat sleeve of the killers jacket will also impede the effectiveness of the hold.
                The armlock does not affect breathing, but cuts off blood flow to the brain. We know from medical evidence that breathing was interfered with so I doubt this was the method.
                Ah, ok. that's the sort of detail I don't know so thanks for that. And yes, if it doesn't interfere with breathing, which it appears to have been (i.e. Chapman's autopsy notes mention black blood in the brain membrains, indicative of no oxygen), then I agree it's unlikely this was his method.


                Are you familiar with the suggestion of Dr Brownfield in the Mylett case?

                "If he cut the throat along the line of the cord he would obliterate the traces of partial strangulation."

                The whole interview is in this newspaper.
                https://www.casebook.org/press_repor...r/s881224.html
                Yes, I've been considering that. I'm just not entirely sure JtR would take the time to cut along it so exactly that he obliterates the ligature marks each and every time. Also, in Eddowes case, the major throat wound does not encircle the neck as it did for Nichols and Chapman. There appears to be a 2nd superficial cut, but the position of it (as shown in the diagram of her injuries) shows it in a location that is not consistent with a ligature (it runs down to the top of her left shoulder).

                It's all very strange. However, I was wondering, if the throat cutting immediately after manual strangulation might drain the blood from the bruised area of the neck, resulting in no apparent signs of manual strangulation? I don't know if that occurs, and I would think some bruising on the neck would still be visible, and the doctors do appear to have been careful in noting them.

                Anyway, thanks again for that.

                - Jeff

                Comment


                • Eddows was not intoxicated, she had well sobered up after being in Bishopsgate police station from early evening till her release at 1.00am

                  Comment


                  • Hi Fishy,

                    She was drunk as a skunk only 5 hours earlier, she would still be intoxicated, or if you would prefer, impaired, when she was let out; basically she wouldn't be completely sober. But no, she wasn't falling down drunk either.

                    - Jeff

                    Comment


                    • Exactly, the groggy effects of alcohol linger long after intoxication has worn off.
                      Regards, Jon S.

                      Comment


                      • just stating a fact that alcohol had nothing to do with eddows been unable to defend herself from the murderer that all. as it didnt in all the murders and to suggest otherwise is incorrect ,

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Dr. John Watson View Post

                          Who said Jack was stout and broad-shouldered?

                          Dr. John
                          Dr. John

                          I didn't mean to say definitely he was stout and broad-shouldered. I just referring to some witness descriptions
                          mentioning he stout and broad-shouldered, eg BSM. And of course they may be referring to someone who wasn't Jack.

                          Though it's a fair assumption he was likely stronger/fitter than his victims?

                          Maybe I was letting a little bias into my picture of Jack, as I know my candidate had both strong large hands and
                          was broad of shoulder.

                          Martyn
                          Write something...

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post

                            Maybe that's why he limited himself to one long abdominal incision, instead of the several, more intricate cuts he inflicted on the other victims.
                            Limited himself? There are more superfluous cuts in Mitre Square than in any other murder save the Kelly murder. He cut her nose, may have made additional cuts to her face..or they may be as you've speculated, collateral damage..he cut a colon section out, he cut and tore her apron. He traced around her navel. In Hanbury it can be said based on the medical opinion that the killer made only the cuts needed to access and obtain the desired object. Even you concede there is no such focus evident if actually intended to take what he did from Kate. Maybe he just cuts and pokes around and makes a choice, like you suggest.

                            That is different from what was done to Annie. We have evidence he had "purpose" there. In Liz we have evidence her killer intended to inflict a potentially fatal wound, and with Kate, we probably just have evidence that someone had been reading the local papers before killing.
                            Michael Richards

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                              Limited himself? There are more superfluous cuts in Mitre Square than in any other murder save the Kelly murder
                              I specifically said "one long abdominal incision", as opposed to the multiple abdominal cuts inflicted on Nichols, or the flaps of flesh excised from Chapman's and Kelly's abdomens - all of which would have taken longer to execute.

                              Besides, how long does it take to slash a face and lop off a nose? All the facial mutilations perpetrated on Eddowes could be inflicted in ten seconds or less.
                              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                              Comment


                              • Just been looking at some old maps I see that there was actually a short passage way between Mitre Street and Leadenhall Street just south of Mitre Square. It was there in 1850s and still there in the 1890s. It's closed in now but the entrance can still be seen today on the Mitre Street side where the pavement has a gap (I would've taken a closer look and given it more attention when I was round there the other week had I known). This could have allowed for the killer to circumnavigate around PC Watkins as he rounded the corner from Aldgate High Street and walked into Mitre Street. The killer could either have walked down Mitre Street, straight on Aldgate High Street and away from the scene as I suggested before or widened the margins by nipping into the passage way, emerging at the end of Leadenhall Street and then entering Aldgate High Street as PC Watkins approached Mitre Square. The killer could have crossed over the end of Mitre Street behind PC Watkin's back and he would be none the wiser.

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