Charles Cross

[Fiver]

Oh whilst I'm here, according to Michael Conner in the Ripp 87 we get this...



Now I'm not sure how he came to this conclusion but some evidence would be nice. Any ideas?

Conner is wrong. There is evidence that Charles Allen Lechmere was literate.
* He signed his 1870 marriage certificate. (His wife and the two witnesses made marks)
* In 1872 he signed as a witness his mother's marriage certificate to her third husband.
* In 1896 he signed as a witness his daughter Elizabeth Emily's marriage certificate.
* In 1898 he signed as a witness his son Thomas Allen's marriage certificate.
* In 1899 he signed as a witness his daughter Mary Jane's marriage certificate.

His job as carman would need at least some level of literacy - he would need to read delivery dockets and delivery invoices. His later job of grocer would also require ate least some level of literacy.

[Geddy2112]

I don't know if Carlton Road, Mile End has been renumbered? The aerial view of No. 24 shows a back garden, but I can't quite wrap the brain cells around what building in the next yard we are seeing.

I can't find a Calton Road, Mile End on the modern map so must have been demolished or called something else. Would the out building possibly be an outside toilet?

I was also idly wondering about the number of rooms there were at No. 22 Doveton Street, to determine what sort of privacy Lechmere could have expected at home.

Sorry for being vague but been reading a bit and watching a few videos about Doveton Street recently and correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure Michael Conner said in the Rip #22 consisted of four 'flats' or the like and he suggests Cross had two of them.

Yes Cross' boots are tremendous, obviously not a tall chap. Does it look like the left heel is larger than the right?

[rjpalmer]

I don't know if Carlton Road, Mile End has been renumbered? The arial view of No. 24 shows a back garden, but I can't quite wrap the brain cells around what building in the next yard we are seeing.

I was also idly wondering about the number of rooms there were at No. 22 Doveton Street, to determine what sort of privacy Lechmere could have expected at home.

He has 7 children who would have been at home in 1888, but as bad luck would have it, the number of rooms is badly blotted in the 1911 census. 6?

He might have moved house because the family was expanding.

[rjpalmer]

Ta, Da

Thanks. Well done. So, you were right about the fence rails.

He looks less twisted in this, but still somewhat awkward as if he's trying to look debonair.

And nice boots.

[Geddy2112]

In your Lechmerian travels, have you come across a high-definition photograph of Charles Lechmere that isn't cropped? The only one I can readily locate is very blurry.

Ta, Da

No chair, and holding a cap by the looks of it... hehe. I just have visions now of Charlie Boy doing a 'Del Boy' if that gate swings open.

[Herlock Sholmes]

To me he appears to have a crook style walking stick in his left hand. I see the circular top of the stick in the hand with the fingers wrapped around it, and the straight extending below. It appear to me that he has something like a book in his right hand - that isn't the way a walking stick is gripped.

Cheers, George

Good point George. If it’s a stick it certainly doesn’t look like he’s putting any weight on it. It looks like he’s holding something, like his stick or something like a book as you suggest. It also looks like the curved arm of a chair but the problem with this is that we can’t see a corresponding one.

[rjpalmer]

I think he is definitely leaning on a chair with his left hand, an open gate would not have a tapered cross section. Agreed with the right hand, sometimes it looks to me like a cane, then maybe a cap. Have to wait on Mark with his hi-res photo I guess...

Hello Geddy

I generally see the photograph in the same way you do, with the building in the background possibly on the other side of a fence. Of course, a higher resolution photograph would help us.

If that's a cap in his right hand as Mark suggests, and not a cane (and that cap might have a bill or peak), it only increases my sense that his stance looks awkward. His possibly underdeveloped right shoulder (our left) is thrown back, while both his left shoulder and left leg are urging themselves forward, with his leg crossing. It's a strange twisting of his torso as if he's walking toward the camera, but I doubt that he is. At the same time, his right ribcage seems to be exerting itself or else he has a remarkably well-developed sternum or set of male breasts.

To me, it looks awkward, unless he couldn't help himself due to curvature of the spine, or a stroke. Of course, if Ed would simply take a pick and a shovel with him on his next trip to the cemetery so I could satisfy my curiosity...

[Geddy2112]

To me he appears to have a crook style walking stick in his left hand. I see the circular top of the stick in the hand with the fingers wrapped around it, and the straight extending below. It appear to me that he has something like a book in his right hand - that isn't the way a walking stick is gripped.

I think he is definitely leaning on a chair with his left hand, an open gate would not have a tapered cross section. Agreed with the right hand, sometimes it looks to me like a cane, then maybe a cap. Have to wait on Mark with his hi-res photo I guess...

[Geddy2112]

If any currently-living relatives of Lechmere/Cross could be found, they would have a damn good case for Libel charges. As I see it, only the Statute of Limitations would get in the way. The same applies to Rev. Dodgson (Lewis Carroll), Vincent Van Gogh, etc.

'In the UK, Parliament has not passed an Act that provides a statute of limitations. However, there are time limits in which criminal proceedings and civil claims must be brought.'

Unfortunately the only descendant of Charles Lechmere I know is Susan Clapp, 'partner in life and Politics' with Edward Stow. Of course she is very much in the Lechmere done it camp. So I doubt she would 'sue' Hi Sue if you are reading, I know you are...

I firmly believe that a large part of the problem is that Critical Thinking isn't being taught anymore ANYWHERE.

Ah yes indeed. You only have to read the comments in the HoL YouTube channel to see a few villages are missing their idiots. The amount that think it's either Lechmere or H H Holmes is astonishing. Of course they are not ruining future research are they?

[C. F. Leon]

Agreed. The whole thing is a nonsense. I have stated before that Cross was an actual person and labelling him as the most infamous serial killer of all time based on absolutely nothing that can't be easily explained is in my opinion- sick.

If any currently-living relatives of Lechmere/Cross could be found, they would have a damn good case for Libel charges. As I see it, only the Statute of Limitations would get in the way. The same applies to Rev. Dodgson (Lewis Carroll), Vincent Van Gogh, etc.

It would at least shut some of these trolls up with their nonsense "theories". Yes, Lechmere is worth a second look, but that doesn't make him automatically GUILTY of Nichols' murder, let alone ANY of the others.

I firmly believe that a large part of the problem is that Critical Thinking isn't being taught anymore ANYWHERE.

[Abby Normal]

hes holding a cane in his right hand and bracing himself with the top of a chair with his left

[GBinOz]

Also, it could really be much clearer that Cross is leaning with his left hand on the back of a chair and I feel that Roger could be correct and that his right hand is holding a walking stick.

To me he appears to have a crook style walking stick in his left hand. I see the circular top of the stick in the hand with the fingers wrapped around it, and the straight extending below. It appear to me that he has something like a book in his right hand - that isn't the way a walking stick is gripped.

Cheers, George

[Geddy2112]

I'm not seeing brickwork either, rendering possibly. No sign of a pocket watch either so I doubt he had one back in 1888...

[Herlock Sholmes]

Mark J.D. states with unfounded confidence that this picture shows brickwork behind this guy that found the body of Mary Nichols. I disagree. It looks nothing like brickwork to me.

Look at the line emerging from just above his left shoulder and sloping downward. Just below it (I’d estimate around 3 inches) is another line which is parallel to it. This looks to me like the cross piece of a fence. Then look at the one emerging from his left hip and is again sloping downward. This, to me, is fairly clearly another cross piece (not a great description I admit so if there are any professional fence builders in?) The top of the fence and the 2 cross pieces exhibit the perspective of a fence which ends somewhere out of shot.

The line emerging from the top of his head is obviously at a different angle and so is on the other side of the fence behind Cross. Within the foliage on his own right side and above his is a vertical post with what could be a horizontal one. This is all surrounded by heavy shrubbery.

Also, it could really be much clearer that Cross is leaning with his left hand on the back of a chair and I feel that Roger could be correct and that his right hand is holding a walking stick.

So, we have Cross standing in front of a fence near to a corner piece (which is at his right shoulder) At the other side of the fence it looks as if it could be an ajar door. His left hand is leaning on a chair and his right is gripping what could be a walking stick.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Oh whilst I'm here, according to Michael Conner in the Ripp 87 we get this...



Now I'm not sure how he came to this conclusion but some evidence would be nice. Any ideas?

It’s surprising that the Cross Fan Club haven’t already come up with a way of presenting this as further evidence of his guilt. Mind you, there’s still time for Ed and co to concoct something.