Charles Cross

[Herlock Sholmes]

Let’s face it. We can’t rule out Abberline as the ripper. He has been named. He was around at the time. He knew the area. He was physically competent. Does any of us allow the remotest possibility of him being the ripper? I think that we all know the answer to that one. Ditto many other suspects. So the ‘we can’t rule him out’ criteria isn’t even worth a mention. Everyone on my suspects list can’t entirely be ruled out but, personally, I’d rule out the majority of them.

And ‘he was there’ means nothing because it applies to other people, at the Nichols murder and at the other sites.

Cross was where we would have expected him to be when we would have expected him to have been there - this alone makes him unlikely.

He was 15/20 minutes away from clocking on at work - this adds to his unlikeliness.

He ignored the obvious and easy opportunity to escape in favour of waiting for Paul to turn up. If he was guilty then this would have been insanely risky and illogical - adding massively to his unlikeliness.

He goes looking for a Constable as an innocent man would - adding to his unlikeliness.

He turns up at the inquest.

We have no evidence of him being violent. We have no evidence of him having mental health issues. We have no evidence of him having an issue with women or prostitutes. We have no evidence of drink or drug problems. And we can’t place him at the scene of any of the other murders.

And actually he was almost certainly at work when Annie Chapman was killed - this makes him massively unlikely as a suspect.

In his favour… he went by his step-fathers name rather than his birth name but he still gave his correct forenames and address at the inquest so he was hiding nothing.

Charles Cross doesn’t have a single thing going for him as a suspect. Basically someone was looking around at people who were around to see if they could invent a feeble case for their guilt and they found Cross. The way that Stow, Holmgren and their acolytes have promoted this witness is a disgrace to honest enquiry.

[Lewis C]

It's true that you can't rule Cross out, in the sense that you can't rule out anyone that was in the London area at the time who was physically capable of doing it. However, that's also true of hundreds of other people.

[Geddy2112]

and clearly you cannot rule out Lechmere just because you feel he wasn't.

Clearly I can rule him out on the evidence thus far presented. If you have to invent evidence to convict someone the likelihood is they are innocent.

[Herlock Sholmes]

You can actually get pigeon chest in old age. My father had it because he had emphysema and it’s due to the muscles used when the person has serious breathing difficulties. Maybe Cross was a lifelong heavy smoker? I can’t imagine what it must have been like in the LVP with no oxygen bottles or nebulisers to help. Horrible enough today.

[John Wheat]

Clearly we still don't know for sure who the ripper was, and clearly you cannot rule out Lechmere just because you feel he wasn't.

If you want to listen just for those who sing your song, you will miss alot of beautiful melodies.


The Baron

He clearly wasn't the Ripper though. Despite what you say.

[The Baron]

as a multiple murderer as he clearly wasn't one.

Clearly we still don't know for sure who the ripper was, and clearly you cannot rule out Lechmere just because you feel he wasn't.

If you want to listen just for those who sing your song, you will miss alot of beautiful melodies.


The Baron

[John Wheat]

If he did have this form of abnormality would it have hindered his work as a carman or multiple murder?

Maybe as a carman but not as a multiple murderer as he clearly wasn't one.

[Geddy2112]

I mean that I'm speculating about whether he actually has pectus carinatum. We won't know without examining his skeleton.

"pigeon chest," also known as pectus carinatum, typically does not develop in old age; it is a condition that almost always appears during childhood or adolescence due to rapid growth spurts, and is considered a congenital abnormality, meaning it is present at birth, even if not noticeable until puberty."

If he did have this form of abnormality would it have hindered his work as a carman or multiple murder?

[rjpalmer]

So if that's the cause, age wouldn't be the cause of it. When you say you're speculating, do you mean that you're speculating about the cause? If so, then maybe it was caused by a condition he developed later.

I mean that I'm speculating about whether he actually has pectus carinatum. We won't know without examining his skeleton.

"pigeon chest," also known as pectus carinatum, typically does not develop in old age; it is a condition that almost always appears during childhood or adolescence due to rapid growth spurts, and is considered a congenital abnormality, meaning it is present at birth, even if not noticeable until puberty."

[Lewis C]

I can't quite agree, Lewis.

I'm merely speculating about what he looks like, and am not married to the idea, but true pectus carinatum is not an acquired deformity; it is genetic. It usually becomes noticeable in puberty or childhood. As the Royal Hospital in Melbourne writes, "there is overgrowth of the cartilage between the ribs and the sternum (breastbone), causing the middle of the chest to stick out."

Severe cases require surgery, but most people either live with it or wear a corrective brace on their chest.

Or course, I can't prove it, nor will we ever know unless Ed gets to work with pick and shovel. Nothing wrong with a bit of 'Burke and Hare' research after sundown!

So if that's the cause, age wouldn't be the cause of it. When you say you're speculating, do you mean that you're speculating about the cause? If so, then maybe it was caused by a condition he developed later.

[Geddy2112]

So, if we extend this analogy to Buck's Row, it's not Lechmere who is the murderer, but the next person at the scene--Robert Paul, or perhaps one of the neighbours or horse slaughterers or Malshaw or Mulshaw's man in the next street. This also happened, I believe, in a murder by the New York killer Joel Rifkin--he showed up after a crowd had formed but took care not to be the first person at the scene.

Also we must remember in true FBI fashion Paul did insert himself into the enquiry by making sure he gave his 'Remarkable Statement.' Stow did a HoL video addressing people voicing concerns that Paul could be the killer. He put the idea of him doing the deed, escaping around the block via Winthrop Street and reappearing into Bucks Row into the 'nutty column.' He did so of course because he thinks Lechmere is the killer and not because the proposition is ridiculous. He claims Robert Paul could not have murdered Polly and doubled back to appear behind Lechmere because he did not have the time. The problem is with very basic primary school maths he could done so with about 7 mins to spare. This would also address a few other issues Team Lechmere has...

1) He gave the time as 'exactly 3:45am' because he knew he'd have an alibi with PC Neil finding the body and him coming up from the rear. He did not factor in a third party like Lechmere would be there instead.
2) The reason he did not clap eyes on Lechmere when they were both in Bath Street or Bucks Row is because Paul was too busy going round the back of Bucks Row in Winthrop Street. Could have disposed of the weapon anywhere here.
3) He accompanied Lechmere to Mizen and allowed Lechmere to do all the talking thus not to incriminate himself or to deflect blame.
4) According to one report Robert Paul refused to prop up Polly... callous bastard!
5) Funnily enough one of the biggest Lechmere Theory red flags are the routes to work. Erm Hanbury Street was on the way to work for Robert Paul.
6) He gave the **** and bull story of it being a rough area to try and deflect blame. Was it that bad it was often described as dark and quiet or the fact he walked it six days a week.
7) Did Robert Paul have any friends or family he could have been visiting near the Berner Street area?
8) Robert Paul was a carman, did he deliver meat?

You get the picture... is it that far-fetched that it should be in the nutty column?

[rjpalmer]

I don't know if I can fully support Herlock's claim that there has never been a multiple murderer who 'found' a body. It's not quite the same as the situation with Lechmere, but there have been cases of killers who have joined a search party for a missing girl, etc., and were the ones who 'found' the victim or the victim's clothes, etc. But like I say, that's not quite the same as what we are faced with here because they manipulate their seemingly 'heroic' efforts to appear more natural and explainable than simply finding a victim in a darkened street which would tend to raise unpleasant questions.

When the horrific Scottish reprobate Angus Sinclair was 16, he strangled a young girl inside a house. He then carried the girl outside and set her at the bottom of a flight of steps and waited inside or around a corner. Two women found the body and, of course, were quite alarmed. Sinclair then shows up, acts concerned and even offers to run down to the phone box and call an ambulance, which he did, saying 'a wee lass has fallen' or some such lie.

So, if we extend this analogy to Buck's Row, it's not Lechmere who is the murderer, but the next person at the scene--Robert Paul, or perhaps one of the neighbors or horse slaughterers or Mulshaw or Mulshaw's man in the next street. This also happened, I believe, in a murder by the New York killer Joel Rifkin--he showed up after a crowd had formed but took care not to be the first person at the scene.

[rjpalmer]

I came across this while trying to get more information on No. 56 Leatherdale Street.

CAL's son Albert Edward selling his bicycle in 1905. I can't recall if he's the lad who was throwing is coat over passing bicyclists.

[rjpalmer]

Hi RJ,

I agree that it looks like there's an abnormal bulge in the middle of his chest. However, I don't think that anything about his body's condition when he was an old man tells us anything about what it would have looked like when he was much younger.

I can't quite agree, Lewis.

I'm merely speculating about what he looks like, and am not married to the idea, but true pectus carinatum is not an acquired deformity; it is genetic. It usually becomes noticeable in puberty or childhood. As the Royal Hospital in Melbourne writes, "there is overgrowth of the cartilage between the ribs and the sternum (breastbone), causing the middle of the chest to stick out."

Severe cases require surgery, but most people either live with it or wear a corrective brace on their chest.

Or course, I can't prove it, nor will we ever know unless Ed gets to work with pick and shovel. Nothing wrong with a bit of 'Burke and Hare' research after sundown!

[Lewis C]

I see it is already being suggested that there is a coded message of Jack and the beanstalk.

I'm not immediately seeing a map with house numbering, but the 1911 census goes in this order

58 Leatherdale
56 Leatherdale
*24 Carlton Road (Lechmere)
26 Carlton Road (two households)
28 Carlton Road, etc.

What is presumably across the corner is

1 Leatherdale
22 Carlton Road

Ed might have more information, but from this it looks like he's spot on with No. 24 being on the SW corner. This was a grocer's shop in 1901.

Mildly interesting is that number 22 Carlton is Edward Elliott listed as a railway carman and he'd been living in the 'hood for decades, listed as a carman. Maybe a friend of Lechmere's and there is no nefarious reason for his "white flight" to Mile-End other than he had a friend there who recommended a house for rent in Doveton Street. Speculation, of course.

Anyhow, unless someone has better information, No. 56 appears to be the house to the west of him, he's wrapped around the corner, and No. 26 is his immediate neighbor to the south.

I'm getting some ribbing (no pun) for suggesting Lechmere suffered a mild deformity, but I'm not alone in thinking his ribcage is not quite normal in appearance. Perhaps I'm seeing things. But his weak shoulders don't suggest Schwartz's broad-shouldered man, and his upper thigh looks bandied and slender, accentuated by the effeminate way he is crossing his legs. Not that 'Jack' needed to be a giant killer.

Hi RJ,

I agree that it looks like there's an abnormal bulge in the middle of his chest. However, I don't think that anything about his body's condition when he was an old man tells us anything about what it would have looked like when he was much younger.