Charles Cross

[Geddy2112]

...accentuated by the effeminate way he is crossing his legs. Not that 'Jack' needed to be a giant killer.

It is rather a camp stance to say the least.

[rjpalmer]

I'm awaiting the next HoL video proclaiming growing runner beans or ivy proves you are a serial killer...

I see it is already being suggested that there is a coded message of Jack and the beanstalk.

I'm not immediately seeing a map with house numbering, but the 1911 census goes in this order

58 Leatherdale
56 Leatherdale
*24 Carlton Road (Lechmere)
26 Carlton Road (two households)
28 Carlton Road, etc.

What is presumably across the corner is

1 Leatherdale
22 Carlton Road

Ed might have more information, but from this it looks like he's spot on with No. 24 being on the SW corner. This was a grocer's shop in 1901.

Mildly interesting is that number 22 Carlton is Edward Elliott listed as a railway carman and he'd been living in the 'hood for decades, listed as a carman. Maybe a friend of Lechmere's and there is no nefarious reason for his "white flight" to Mile-End other than he had a friend there who recommended a house for rent in Doveton Street. Speculation, of course.

Anyhow, unless someone has better information, No. 56 appears to be the house to the west of him, he's wrapped around the corner, and No. 26 is his immediate neighbor to the south.

I'm getting some ribbing (no pun) for suggesting Lechmere suffered a mild deformity, but I'm not alone in thinking his ribcage is not quite normal in appearance. Perhaps I'm seeing things. But his weak shoulders don't suggest Schwartz's broad-shouldered man, and his upper thigh looks bandied and slender, accentuated by the effeminate way he is crossing his legs. Not that 'Jack' needed to be a giant killer.

[Geddy2112]

I think you're onto something; I think I can see a post on either side of the gate, and latticework on the right-hand side of the photograph, peeking between the leaves.

I'm awaiting the next HoL video proclaiming growing runner beans or ivy proves you are a serial killer...

[The Rookie Detective]

It's from the State Library in Melbourne and shows Deeming and his wife Marie James, c. 1880s

Thank you for clarifying that for me, I knew I was going bonkers!

haha!

[Herlock Sholmes]

The problem is that if it’s correct that we are looking at a backyard behind Cross with a fence and if that’s a door on the left instead of the window certain ‘enthusiasts’ will be claiming it’s Cross re-visiting Hanbury Street and standing outside the rear of Cadosch’s house.

[rjpalmer]

I thought that was Bury and not Deeming.

I am sure I have seen this photo (or something similar) featuring William Bury and his wife.

I may be wrong but is someone able to confirm I am going bonkers and that there is no such photo of Bury, and that I have mixed it all up in my head?

haha!

It's from the State Library in Melbourne and shows Deeming and his wife Marie James, c. 1880s

[The Rookie Detective]

In this photo of Deeming, taken in the mid 1880s, it looks like he is wearing an identical suit, including the medal/badge. Someone suggested earlier that it may be a badge for the Serial Killers Club?

I thought that was Bury and not Deeming.

I am sure I have seen this photo (or something similar) featuring William Bury and his wife.

I may be wrong but is someone able to confirm I am going bonkers and that there is no such photo of Bury, and that I have mixed it all up in my head?

haha!

[rjpalmer]

so I think it forms some form of crude archway for the ivy to grow up and around to the other side of the gate.

I think you're onto something; I think I can see a post on either side of the gate, and latticework on the right-hand side of the photograph, peeking between the leaves.

[Geddy2112]

Could this photo have been either, a) Cross standing at his back gate with the fence behind him separating his and his neighbours house, or b) could the gate separate two parts of his own garden? A friend of mine has such a gate separating the an area with two lawns and a fish pond and an area at the rear of the garden with a greenhouse where she grows things and her husband has a shed filled with junk that he won’t get rid of. Her gateway is even overgrown with leaves like the one in the photo.

The window is easy, and the fence dividing the property. I think those are given. The window actually being next door's window hence we can't see the bottom of it behind the fence. Fences nowadays I think are restricted to 6' but I'm not suggesting this is that high as it would make Lechmere about 6'6". I'm going for a 5' fence making Cross about 5'6" to 5'8" depending if he is wearing those funky boots or not.
What I thought on the blurrier picture was a drainpipe dividing the property I think is now on the same plane as Lechmere's hand so I think it forms some form of crude archway for the ivy to grow up and around to the other side of the gate.
Certainly looks like a flat cap (or Gladstone Bag ) in his right hand and certainly some form of Serial Killer Club badge on his lapel.

[rjpalmer]

Ed's description No. 24 can be found here, Post 2911:

East End Photographs and Drawings - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums

[rjpalmer]

Some people on this side of the pond have what they call a 'privacy fence.' They plant vines that grow up along the fence (usually chain linked, though that is obviously not the case here) so their neighbor's side of the yard is both physically and psychologically separated from their own. I'd like to know more about the numbering of Leatherdale Street.

[rjpalmer]

As you have said after this post it does not seem to fit. Unless he is standing outside the front of the house. The houses still standing down the road have the same shape windows. Like I said are we 100% this is actually Lechmere because if Stow told me it was Wednesday I'd check a calendar

I'm failing to see the 'brickwork' that identifies this is No. 24 Carlton Street, as Mark mentions in his earlier post. Behind him on the other side of the gate is the wooden fence you described angling away from him.

Provided the ordnance map is accurate and this is indeed No. 24 Carlton Street, I think it would only 'work' as shown below. The blue arrow shows the direction of the camera. There is a low dividing fence in the yard (dotted in green) and Crossmere is in front of it, indicated by the red X. I've enhanced the neighbor's fence in brown, and the window seen in the background is indicated in blue.

Maybe there is a better insurance map somewhere?

Northern / northeastern exposure blocked by the house; not a lot of light for those pole beans.

[Herlock Sholmes]

In this photo (auto sharpened in photoshop) the object in his right hand looks very much like a peaked cap. Looking at the height of his hands, it can be seen that his left arm is pointed back, and it appears to me that his hand is behind the alignment of the picket gate. Hard as I try, I can't see a chair.



Cheers, George

What a difference George. It certainly looked like he was leaning on a chair before this but we can now say for certain that he is leaning on a fence and I’m as sure as I can be that he does indeed have his cap in his right hand, which I’d have never guessed. I will defend one original suggestion though. I believed that there was a fence directly behind him, that he was almost touching with his back, but now that we can see the gate I can still see what looks like a fence but it’s in the distance (a few feet behind him) Over his right shoulder it looks like a window to me, which is at the other side of the fence…so I’d suggest that the window was next door.

Could this photo have been either, a) Cross standing at his back gate with the fence behind him separating his and his neighbours house, or b) could the gate separate two parts of his own garden? A friend of mine has such a gate separating the an area with two lawns and a fish pond and an area at the rear of the garden with a greenhouse where she grows things and her husband has a shed filled with junk that he won’t get rid of. Her gateway is even overgrown with leaves like the one in the photo.

Just a couple of possibles.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Looking at this again, I don't think it works as described. The railed fence dividing his garden from the next house would mean his back is facing west, and his head east, but then there would need to be a second shorter fence (not shown in the ordnance map) dividing his own garden in half, which is possible if that long house (presumably No. 24 according to Ed) is subdivided. The camera angle would also have to be tilted towards the next house. Of course, who knows how accurate that 1894 map is by 1912, if that is indeed the date of the photo.

And I still think Eduardo should dig up the old fellow's skeleton and set my mind at ease. There was a condition known as 'pigeon chest' (pectus carinatum) and I still think he doesn't look quite right.

Hi Roger,

I believe that my Dad ‘pigeon chest’ in his later years because he had been suffering from emphysema for many years.

[GBinOz]

Can you zoom in and tell us what his medal/badge is?

In this photo of Deeming, taken in the mid 1880s, it looks like he is wearing an identical suit, including the medal/badge. Someone suggested earlier that it may be a badge for the Serial Killers Club?