Charles Cross

[rjpalmer]

I can't find a Calton Road, Mile End on the modern map so must have been demolished or called something else.

According to an old post by Eduardo, Carlton Road is now Portelet Road, and No. 24 was on the southwest corner of Leatherdale Street.

The only ordnance map I can find (from 1894/5) shows a small back garden (marked in yellow) and if the line is a dividing fence, it could show where Charlie was standing, with the back corner of the building next door directly behind him on the other side of the fence.

He would be standing in the upper of the two yellow squares facing north, herringbone cap in hand, perhaps meditating on a life well lived.

[GBinOz]

In this photo (auto sharpened in photoshop) the object in his right hand looks very much like a peaked cap. Looking at the height of his hands, it can be seen that his left arm is pointed back, and it appears to me that his hand is behind the alignment of the picket gate. Hard as I try, I can't see a chair.



Cheers, George

[rjpalmer]

The only ordnance map I can find (from 1894/5) shows a small back garden (marked in yellow) and if the line is a dividing fence, it could show where Charlie was standing, with the back corner of the building next door directly behind him on the other side of the fence.

Looking at this again, I don't think it works as described. The railed fence dividing his garden from the next house would mean his back is facing west, and his head east, but then there would need to be a second shorter fence (not shown in the ordnance map) dividing his own garden in half, which is possible if that long house (presumably No. 24 according to Ed) is subdivided. The camera angle would also have to be tilted towards the next house. Of course, who knows how accurate that 1894 map is by 1912, if that is indeed the date of the photo.

And I still think Eduardo should dig up the old fellow's skeleton and set my mind at ease. There was a condition known as 'pigeon chest' (pectus carinatum) and I still think he doesn't look quite right.

[Geddy2112]

Amazing that you can all apparently see the completely invisible, transparent, imaginary chair on his left, but somehow not see the *totally obvious* Loch Ness Monster over to his right...

Let's focus on that 'chair' again, shall we...?

Wow... in the original picture shown it looks like a chair. In the slightly enhanced version it's clear it's not a chair but a gate. The cane in the older photo is clearly now a peaked cap. There is still a window, and a fence dividing the properties.

In GBinOz's further enhancement we can see the 'birth' of the famous... what does Team Lechmere call it? The Stroke Scar or the Defensive Wound Scar... mmm

So yes apologies for 'having a go and trying to help' the chair has even made it across to the other forum. I did actually 'correct' my mistake before you even bothered to post. Any chance you are going to apologise for trying to frame an innocent man of multiple murders? No doubt will be in the next House of Tenuous Links video, isn't that right Sue?

Are we sure this photo is actually Charles Cross or is it another falsehood pimped by Stow and Co?

[Geddy2112]

According to an old post by Eduardo, Carlton Road is now Portelet Road, and No. 24 was on the southwest corner of Leatherdale Street.

The only ordnance map I can find (from 1894/5) shows a small back garden (marked in yellow) and if the line is a dividing fence, it could show where Charlie was standing, with the back corner of the building next door directly behind him on the other side of the fence.

He would be standing in the upper of the two yellow squares facing north, herringbone cap in hand, perhaps meditating on a life well lived.

As you have said after this post it does not seem to fit. Unless he is standing outside the front of the house. The houses still standing down the road have the same shape windows. Like I said are we 100% this is actually Lechmere because if Stow told me it was Wednesday I'd check a calendar

[Geddy2112]

In this photo (auto sharpened in photoshop) the object in his right hand looks very much like a peaked cap. Looking at the height of his hands, it can be seen that his left arm is pointed back, and it appears to me that his hand is behind the alignment of the picket gate. Hard as I try, I can't see a chair.

Awesome, thank you. No chair, error on my behalf which I subsequently apologised for. Can you zoom in and tell us what his medal/badge is?

[Geddy2112]

Perhaps the mistake is worse than ‘accidentally’ leaving the word ‘about’ out of a book. Or ‘accidentally’ leaving the word ‘about’ out of a documentary. Or ‘accidentally’ forgetting to mention this to a Barrister?

Or thinking the Coroner is a liar, or thinking one witness trumps three PCs about timings, or thinking an escaped tiger made him do it, or thinking Nichola Bulley is a reason, or thinking it was the Bagels, or thinking there will still be flesh in the Doveton St drains, or thinking Robert Paul could not casually walk 300 yards in under 15 mins, or thinking people who knew each other in real life get buried next to each other when they die... etc

[GBinOz]

Can you zoom in and tell us what his medal/badge is?

In this photo of Deeming, taken in the mid 1880s, it looks like he is wearing an identical suit, including the medal/badge. Someone suggested earlier that it may be a badge for the Serial Killers Club?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Looking at this again, I don't think it works as described. The railed fence dividing his garden from the next house would mean his back is facing west, and his head east, but then there would need to be a second shorter fence (not shown in the ordnance map) dividing his own garden in half, which is possible if that long house (presumably No. 24 according to Ed) is subdivided. The camera angle would also have to be tilted towards the next house. Of course, who knows how accurate that 1894 map is by 1912, if that is indeed the date of the photo.

And I still think Eduardo should dig up the old fellow's skeleton and set my mind at ease. There was a condition known as 'pigeon chest' (pectus carinatum) and I still think he doesn't look quite right.

Hi Roger,

I believe that my Dad ‘pigeon chest’ in his later years because he had been suffering from emphysema for many years.

[Herlock Sholmes]

In this photo (auto sharpened in photoshop) the object in his right hand looks very much like a peaked cap. Looking at the height of his hands, it can be seen that his left arm is pointed back, and it appears to me that his hand is behind the alignment of the picket gate. Hard as I try, I can't see a chair.



Cheers, George

What a difference George. It certainly looked like he was leaning on a chair before this but we can now say for certain that he is leaning on a fence and I’m as sure as I can be that he does indeed have his cap in his right hand, which I’d have never guessed. I will defend one original suggestion though. I believed that there was a fence directly behind him, that he was almost touching with his back, but now that we can see the gate I can still see what looks like a fence but it’s in the distance (a few feet behind him) Over his right shoulder it looks like a window to me, which is at the other side of the fence…so I’d suggest that the window was next door.

Could this photo have been either, a) Cross standing at his back gate with the fence behind him separating his and his neighbours house, or b) could the gate separate two parts of his own garden? A friend of mine has such a gate separating the an area with two lawns and a fish pond and an area at the rear of the garden with a greenhouse where she grows things and her husband has a shed filled with junk that he won’t get rid of. Her gateway is even overgrown with leaves like the one in the photo.

Just a couple of possibles.

[rjpalmer]

As you have said after this post it does not seem to fit. Unless he is standing outside the front of the house. The houses still standing down the road have the same shape windows. Like I said are we 100% this is actually Lechmere because if Stow told me it was Wednesday I'd check a calendar

I'm failing to see the 'brickwork' that identifies this is No. 24 Carlton Street, as Mark mentions in his earlier post. Behind him on the other side of the gate is the wooden fence you described angling away from him.

Provided the ordnance map is accurate and this is indeed No. 24 Carlton Street, I think it would only 'work' as shown below. The blue arrow shows the direction of the camera. There is a low dividing fence in the yard (dotted in green) and Crossmere is in front of it, indicated by the red X. I've enhanced the neighbor's fence in brown, and the window seen in the background is indicated in blue.

Maybe there is a better insurance map somewhere?

Northern / northeastern exposure blocked by the house; not a lot of light for those pole beans.

[rjpalmer]

Some people on this side of the pond have what they call a 'privacy fence.' They plant vines that grow up along the fence (usually chain linked, though that is obviously not the case here) so their neighbor's side of the yard is both physically and psychologically separated from their own. I'd like to know more about the numbering of Leatherdale Street.

[rjpalmer]

Ed's description No. 24 can be found here, Post 2911:

East End Photographs and Drawings - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums

[Geddy2112]

Could this photo have been either, a) Cross standing at his back gate with the fence behind him separating his and his neighbours house, or b) could the gate separate two parts of his own garden? A friend of mine has such a gate separating the an area with two lawns and a fish pond and an area at the rear of the garden with a greenhouse where she grows things and her husband has a shed filled with junk that he won’t get rid of. Her gateway is even overgrown with leaves like the one in the photo.

The window is easy, and the fence dividing the property. I think those are given. The window actually being next door's window hence we can't see the bottom of it behind the fence. Fences nowadays I think are restricted to 6' but I'm not suggesting this is that high as it would make Lechmere about 6'6". I'm going for a 5' fence making Cross about 5'6" to 5'8" depending if he is wearing those funky boots or not.
What I thought on the blurrier picture was a drainpipe dividing the property I think is now on the same plane as Lechmere's hand so I think it forms some form of crude archway for the ivy to grow up and around to the other side of the gate.
Certainly looks like a flat cap (or Gladstone Bag ) in his right hand and certainly some form of Serial Killer Club badge on his lapel.

[rjpalmer]

so I think it forms some form of crude archway for the ivy to grow up and around to the other side of the gate.

I think you're onto something; I think I can see a post on either side of the gate, and latticework on the right-hand side of the photograph, peeking between the leaves.