Is Kosminski still the best suspect we have?

[GBinOz]

To summarise, we have amongst the senior police of the time:

Anderson saying: you can relax, we found JtR. The family were worried about him being JtR and put him in an asylum and he died shortly afterwards.

Macnaghten saying: you can relax, we found JtR. The family were worried about him being JtR and his body was found in the Thames.

Abilene saying: you can't relax, we don't have the foggiest idea who JtR is. For any new murders with a similar MO we'll bring in previous witnesses to have a look at the latest JtR suspect.

Littlechild saying: JtR wasn't Dr D, he was Dr T (Tumbelty) and he has left the country.

Since this is a Kosminski thread, my opinion is that Schwartz was Anderson's witness and he identified Kosminski as BSM. I am not sure that Kosminski followed through to kill Stride and I am even less convinced that he was JtR. I'm looking at the case against Tumblety at present and am wondering if he may have been Pipeman in the Stride case?

Cheer, George

[GBinOz]

Well this is a fine state of affairs. When the first inventor of a time machine says to us "OK chaps, I'll just nip back and sort out this JtR stuff for you. Just give me a description of your prime suspect that I can show the police.....what....you don't have a description.... of your PRIME suspect.....what have you people been doing all this time? How embarrassing.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Can someone point me to a photograph of William Grant Grainger please? I can’t recall seeing it.

[Scott Nelson]

He's got that far-away look, the approximate age of Kosminski in 1888, a light beard and faint moustache and Eastern European features.

[Wickerman]

Look at that photo montage of patients or inmates in the A-Z (1997 ed.) -- the one that shows Michael Ostrog (#10) in the middle. The guy in the upper right (#4) is probably what Kosminski looked like.

It's in the original 1991 edition too, No. 4 doesn't look 23 yrs old to me.
I wonder if anyone else besides myself is interested in what your opinion is based on.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I remember years ago a researcher thought that he’d found a photo of Kosminski in some asylum records but it came to nothing. I’m not sure of his name but it might have been King? I wonder if there’s a phot of him out there somewhere? Then again, when we look at one of those old street scene phone Koz might be one of those staring back at us.

[Scott Nelson]

Look at that photo montage of patients or inmates in the A-Z (1997 ed.) -- the one that shows Michael Ostrog (#10) in the middle. The guy in the upper right (#4) is probably what Kosminski looked like.

[Ms Diddles]

Hi Herlock,

Thanks for the link. I was thinking more of a description that can be compared with witness statements. The photos of Druitt provide everything but his height, but I haven't been able to locate a description of Kosminski.

Cheers, George

Hi George,

I think I'm correct in saying that the only descriptions which we have of Kozminski are from the asylum records.

They mention his weight (rather underweight, and decreasing as his stay in the asylum continues and his health deteriorates) and general appearance (unkempt, dirty).

They give us no idea of what he looked like prior to his incarceration.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

Thanks for the link. I was thinking more of a description that can be compared with witness statements. The photos of Druitt provide everything but his height, but I haven't been able to locate a description of Kosminski.

Cheers, George

I should be able to give you a definitive answer George but i can’t. I don’t think that there’s an actual description although we can get a pretty good idea from the various photos. Obvious we know his exact age….31. It’s difficult to tell his height but he looks of fairly average and of slim build but, as a sportsman, he was in good shape so might have been a bit more muscular than he appears. Certainly not stocky though unless he wore heavy clothing which misled a witness?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

Apologies if I seem a little obtuse in following what you are saying. You seem to be suggesting that MacNaghten's errors regarding Monty's age, profession etc were deliberate and part of a conspiracy with Sims to muddy the waters on the identity of the Thames River suicide to protect the family. But then you seem to suggest that in 1889, after the suicide was reported, Monty was actually interred in an asylum in France i.e. that he wasn't the suicide that was reported. My reading of your third paragraph is that Sims is suggesting that Monty was in an asylum previously and then subsequently suicided after being released.

Its a bit involved and I probably wasn’t being very clear George. The article was dated January 1889 but it’s talking about events in 1888. There are no actual dates but from the content it appears to suggest that this occurred between 19th Nov (when Monty attended a meeting at the Blackheath Club) and Nov 28th when he appeared in court. Jon Hainsworth believes that it took place in the ten days between the Kelly murder and the Blackheath club meeting.

Druitt hasn't been on my list of viable suspects because of the dependance on MacNaghten's secret private information, and the police seeming to still be looking for a ripper suspect after the McKenzie and Coles murders. But my mind can always be changed by new information - hence my interest in the newly published book. The other thing that doesn't sit well with me is the circumstances of Druitt's suicide. The brother finding a suicide note indicating congenital reasons, but his also implying that the reason for his brother's termination from the school involved him being in a lot of trouble. Why would Monty have determined to throw himself into the Thames and then put a cheque for a considerable sum, and gold, and his watch in his pockets with four rocks, and then buy a return ticket to his rendezvous with death? Brain snap?....I'm not convinced.

It has also been suggested, though not by Jon Hainsworth, that Druitt ‘might’ have been murdered. One suggestion has been that he mixed socially with some from the upper echelons of society (which in itself certainly isn’t far fetched when considering Druitt’s contacts, however brief) and that those people didn’t want it revealed that JTR was ‘one of their own.’ As you know George, I’m very wary of conspiracies and cover-ups but no one could say that people don’t cover things up at times.

Cheers, George

Mention of Druitt as a suspect tends to get some gnashing their teeth, wailing and rending their garments but he’s the most interesting suspect for me. There’s a lot going on in any full reading of events surrounding Druitt. No ‘evidence’ of guilt of course which is what those that dismiss him usually say but what ‘evidence’ is there against anyone? There’s lots of stuff to keep someone with an open mind interested.

[GBinOz]

Plenty of photos of Druitt, George. Jon Hainsworth uncovered a new one in his book. A few here..

https://www.google.com/search?q=montague+john+druitt&rlz=1C9BKJA_enGB704GB704&hl=en-GB&prmd=insv&sxsrf=ALeKk00Qdtfqj0M4skEYpL3pDQ2NybpH4w:1627293333316&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj9jc-IvIDyAhXAXhUIHRpKBTUQ_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=1024&bih=1247

Hi Herlock,

Thanks for the link. I was thinking more of a description that can be compared with witness statements. The photos of Druitt provide everything but his height, but I haven't been able to locate a description of Kosminski.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

The book is very good IMO but many struggle to accept the basic premise that by the Edwardian era the identity of the ripper was pretty much known to have been an English gentleman that committed suicide the Thames after the Kelly murder. MacNaghten (with the help of his friend the writer George Sims) decided on a campaign of misinformation to hide the killers true identity to protect the family who were not only well-to-do but who were related by marriage to one of MacNaghten’s best friend’s Colonel Sir Vivian Majendie. Then after the war when those looking into the case tried to find the killer in the records they couldn’t because of the misinformation which led them to believe that the story of the killer committing suicide was just a myth.

There’s no concrete evidence that Druitt was in an asylum but Roger Palmer (poster RJPalmer) discovered a newspaper article in The Philadelphia Times of January 1889 telling of a young Englishman being admitted to a private asylum in France where he was accompanied by two men. His ‘friend’, a lawyer, (Monty’s brother was a solicitor) and his cousin, a priest (Monty’s cousin was the Reverend Charles Druitt.) The headline read: “WHITECHAPEL FIENDS. A Most Remarkable Story That Comes From Paris. POSSIBLY THIS IS A CLUE. One of the Supposed Murderers, Sent to an Asylum Tells Much That is Startling.

obviously I wouldn’t suggest that this is a case of ‘game over’ but it’s, at the very least, intriguing. In 1907 George Sims writes “ [The chief suspect] was a well-dressed….Doctor [who] had been an inmate of a lunatic asylum.” He then goes on to mention him committing suicide in the Thames.

Another book well worth getting George is David Anderson’s Blood Harvest. He also believes Druitt to have been guilty but without the MacNaghten/Sims cover up angle.

Hi Herlock,

Apologies if I seem a little obtuse in following what you are saying. You seem to be suggesting that MacNaghten's errors regarding Monty's age, profession etc were deliberate and part of a conspiracy with Sims to muddy the waters on the identity of the Thames River suicide to protect the family. But then you seem to suggest that in 1889, after the suicide was reported, Monty was actually interred in an asylum in France i.e. that he wasn't the suicide that was reported. My reading of your third paragraph is that Sims is suggesting that Monty was in an asylum previously and then subsequently suicided after being released.

Druitt hasn't been on my list of viable suspects because of the dependance on MacNaghten's secret private information, and the police seeming to still be looking for a ripper suspect after the McKenzie and Coles murders. But my mind can always be changed by new information - hence my interest in the newly published book. The other thing that doesn't sit well with me is the circumstances of Druitt's suicide. The brother finding a suicide note indicating congenital reasons, but his also implying that the reason for his brother's termination from the school involved him being in a lot of trouble. Why would Monty have determined to throw himself into the Thames and then put a cheque for a considerable sum, and gold, and his watch in his pockets with four rocks, and then buy a return ticket to his rendezvous with death? Brain snap?....I'm not convinced.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Is there currently available a physical description of Kosminski, or Druitt?

Cheers, George

Plenty of photos of Druitt, George. Jon Hainsworth uncovered a new one in his book. A few here..

https://www.google.com/search?q=montague+john+druitt&rlz=1C9BKJA_enGB704GB704&hl=en-GB&prmd=insv&sxsrf=ALeKk00Qdtfqj0M4skEYpL3pDQ2NybpH4w:1627293333316&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj9jc-IvIDyAhXAXhUIHRpKBTUQ_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=1024&bih=1247

[Herlock Sholmes]

Wrong.

Actually it is a case of faulty recollection by yourself.


Kosminski was admitted to Mile End Old Town Workhouse on 12 July 1890, three days later 15 July 1890 he was discharged into the care of his brother[-in-law], Wolf’s care.


12-15 July 1890


The Seaside Home at Hove was already open since March 1890


It helps when you first get your basic information right.



The Baron

Oh the irony.

No responses to my previous post I see.

10 ‘gotcha’s’

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ah, I see. Thank you

Mr Begg now joins the list of people like Mark Twain who have read their own obituary.