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Is Kosminski still the best suspect we have?

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  • Joshua Rogan
    replied
    Originally posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
    I am wondering if the Seaside home mentioned by Swanson in his famous marginalia could be a reference to the Sailors Home in Well St [now Ensign St], and the nearby Destitute Sailors' Asylum which was on the next street , Dock St. Both built, seven years apart to provide shelter and food for seamen by perhaps the same philanthropists.

    The location is tempting less than a mile from Mitre Sq and Aldgate [Butchers row suspect?], in City Police territory [watched by City Police, so in effect their suspect for Eddowes murder] and less than a mile from Lawende's workplace St Mary Axe. If indeed Lawende was the witness.
    Hi Darryl,
    I believe the two homes were actually in Met police territory (being very close to Leman Street station). However, as I understand it, both the Met and the City police had the legal rights of investigation and arrest anywhere.in England and Wales, including in each others' patrolled territory.

    I also seem to recall that the City force were doing undercover surveillance well before Eddowes was murdered - if you can believe Chief Supt Smith, as Early as August.​​​​​​

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  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
    I am wondering if the Seaside home mentioned by Swanson in his famous marginalia could be a reference to the Sailors Home in Well St [now Ensign St], and the nearby Destitute Sailors' Asylum which was on the next street , Dock St. Both built, seven years apart to provide shelter and food for seamen by perhaps the same philanthropists.

    The location is tempting less than a mile from Mitre Sq and Aldgate [Butchers row suspect?], in City Police territory [watched by City Police, so in effect their suspect for Eddowes murder] and less than a mile from Lawende's workplace St Mary Axe. If indeed Lawende was the witness.

    It seems strange to me that you would take a witness and a suspect miles [Brighton], just to confront the witness with the suspect, why not do that in London?. Doesn't sound much like a proper ID and could their actually be one with Kosminski's deteriorating mental condition?

    Bearing in mind that Lawende said that the man he sighted had the appearance of a sailor. What better place to put a mentally unstable suspect who may have been a sailor in front of a witness than an asylum for sailors. Now I believe not everybody or indeed probably most people who resided there suffered from mental illness but it still gives the ID an air of credibility to it in case there was a court case. In fact Lawende could have been confronted with a few seamen, one at a time but it was Kosminski he recognised. He certainly didn't know he was a Jew at the time [when he learned he was a fellow Jew, he declined to give evidence] and probably not a sailor.

    Although I have no proof of this and just a few suggestions it is tempting. A suspect who had the appearance of a sailor but wasn't, yet picked out by a witness at a Sailors home after perhaps looking at a few other seamen beforehand. Even if Lawende says he wasn't positive and reminded the Police that he only had a cursory glance at the murderer it might have hardened the thoughts of Anderson and maybe Swanson that Kosminski was their man. Particularly after he said Sadler wasn't the man not long after, even though he could be seen as a reasonable suspect. He could even have been used at the Sadler ID to test his veracity. Pick out Sadler as well and the case against Kosminski gets watered down, but he didn't.

    Regards Darryl
    good post dk. do you think lawende was the witness?

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  • Wickerman
    replied
    Originally posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
    In connexion with the arrest of a lunatic at Holloway, it appears that he has been missing from his friends for some time now. The detectives have been very active in prosecuting their inquiries concerning him, and it is believed the result, so far, increases their suspicion. He is at present confined in the asylum at Grove-road, Bow.

    There are at present three cases of suspicion. 1. The lunatic Isensmith a Swiss arrested at Holloway who is now in an asylum at Bow & arrangements are being made to ascertain whether he is the man who was seen on the morning of the murder in a public house by Mrs Fiddymont.

    In the early hours of 12 September Isenschmid was arrested and taken to Holloway Police Station. Judged insane, he was sent to the Islington Workhouse and from thence, the same day, to Grove Hall Lunatic Asylum, Fairfield Road, Bow.

    Dr Mickle, resident medical officer at Grove Hall, was so concerned about his patient’s health that he declined to permit the witnesses to confront him. On 19 September, the date of our last police report on Isenschmid, the doctor was still obdurate and we do not know whether Mrs Fiddymont and her witnesses ever did identify the suspect.
    ........
    This article reads like it is the same subject.


    Lloyds Weekly, 30 Sept. 1888.

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  • John Wheat
    replied
    Kosminski is not a particularly strong suspect in my opinion however he's a better suspect than a lot of so called suspects.

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  • Wickerman
    replied
    Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post

    It was Stewart Evans in a dissertation available here:

    Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Kosminski and the Seaside Home
    I just had to look, for some reason Paul Begg's name stuck in my mind.
    I found Paul debating this with Jonathan Hainsworth about 10 years ago.
    https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...771#post307771
    Credit was given in another post to Stewart, and I do have Scotland Yard Investigates, but for some reason I could only remember Paul.

    Leave a comment:


  • Wickerman
    replied
    Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post

    It was Stewart Evans in a dissertation available here:

    Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Kosminski and the Seaside Home
    Thankyou RJ.

    Leave a comment:


  • Scott Nelson
    replied
    Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

    It appears he was only certified insane on the 6th Feb. and by one of their own doctors, Edmund Houchin, police Surgeon for H division.
    OK, so he was identified before this date, or could there have been multiple ID attempts?

    Leave a comment:


  • rjpalmer
    replied
    Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

    That may have been the origin of the idea, but I think I heard/read it from Paul Begg a number of years ago.
    It was Stewart Evans in a dissertation available here:

    Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Kosminski and the Seaside Home

    Leave a comment:


  • Darryl Kenyon
    replied
    Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

    Precisely Darryl.

    The red dot is the Sailors Home, and we can see how close it was to the south end of Leman St.

    Thanks Wick

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  • Darryl Kenyon
    replied
    Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

    That may have been the origin of the idea, but I think I heard/read it from Paul Begg a number of years ago.
    I could be wrong but I think this idea was suggested in Scotland Yard investigates by Stewart Evans and Don Rumbelow.

    Regards Darryl

    Leave a comment:


  • Wickerman
    replied
    Originally posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
    I am wondering if the Seaside home mentioned by Swanson in his famous marginalia could be a reference to the Sailors Home in Well St [now Ensign St], and the nearby Destitute Sailors' Asylum which was on the next street , Dock St. Both built, seven years apart to provide shelter and food for seamen by perhaps the same philanthropists.
    Precisely Darryl.

    The red dot is the Sailors Home, and we can see how close it was to the south end of Leman St.


    Leave a comment:


  • Wickerman
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    Could this be where the suggestion that witness refused to give up a fellow Jew come from? Maybe the witness, as you say, was pretty confident when first confronted, but after a bit of thought uncertainties crept in and he started to worry about the possibility of helping to send an innocent man to the gallows and so he backtracked? Perhaps some officer at the Parade believed that he was only backtracking because he now knew that the man was a fellow Jew and he passed this opinion on to Anderson?
    The Achilles Heel in that view is the reason given. It may have been the uninformed view of the witness but the police would not be able to charge a lunatic because the courts expect an accused to be able to understand right from wrong and have the mental capacity to form a logical defense. If what we read is accurate that situation barely applies to Kozminski.
    Swanson of all people would have known this.

    Some might say that this places the ID at a time prior to Kozminski being determined insane, certainly before he was assessed by Houchin on Feb 6, 1891. However questions were raised about his sanity 6 months earlier in July 1890. Yet according to surviving records that was the first time Kozminski had been taken to an Asylum.
    There's so many questions here, nothing is straight forward.
    It's just the reason given, coming from Swanson, doesn't sit well.

    Leave a comment:


  • Wickerman
    replied
    Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

    Misremembering Sadler? He sold a knife to a man in the Sailor's Home just after Coles was murdered, and was subsequently identified by him at a parade in Leman Street station.
    That may have been the origin of the idea, but I think I heard/read it from Paul Begg a number of years ago.

    Leave a comment:


  • Darryl Kenyon
    replied
    I am wondering if the Seaside home mentioned by Swanson in his famous marginalia could be a reference to the Sailors Home in Well St [now Ensign St], and the nearby Destitute Sailors' Asylum which was on the next street , Dock St. Both built, seven years apart to provide shelter and food for seamen by perhaps the same philanthropists.

    The location is tempting less than a mile from Mitre Sq and Aldgate [Butchers row suspect?], in City Police territory [watched by City Police, so in effect their suspect for Eddowes murder] and less than a mile from Lawende's workplace St Mary Axe. If indeed Lawende was the witness.

    It seems strange to me that you would take a witness and a suspect miles [Brighton], just to confront the witness with the suspect, why not do that in London?. Doesn't sound much like a proper ID and could their actually be one with Kosminski's deteriorating mental condition?

    Bearing in mind that Lawende said that the man he sighted had the appearance of a sailor. What better place to put a mentally unstable suspect who may have been a sailor in front of a witness than an asylum for sailors. Now I believe not everybody or indeed probably most people who resided there suffered from mental illness but it still gives the ID an air of credibility to it in case there was a court case. In fact Lawende could have been confronted with a few seamen, one at a time but it was Kosminski he recognised. He certainly didn't know he was a Jew at the time [when he learned he was a fellow Jew, he declined to give evidence] and probably not a sailor.

    Although I have no proof of this and just a few suggestions it is tempting. A suspect who had the appearance of a sailor but wasn't, yet picked out by a witness at a Sailors home after perhaps looking at a few other seamen beforehand. Even if Lawende says he wasn't positive and reminded the Police that he only had a cursory glance at the murderer it might have hardened the thoughts of Anderson and maybe Swanson that Kosminski was their man. Particularly after he said Sadler wasn't the man not long after, even though he could be seen as a reasonable suspect. He could even have been used at the Sadler ID to test his veracity. Pick out Sadler as well and the case against Kosminski gets watered down, but he didn't.

    Regards Darryl

    Leave a comment:


  • Darryl Kenyon
    replied
    Strangely Sadler was charged with murder on the fifteenth by Smith the day after Swanson interviewed, but didn't charge him. Perhaps Smith had ideas of trying to tie him to all the murders more vigorously than Swanson who knew the Mets prime suspect was in an asylum.
    Regards Darryl

    Leave a comment:

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