Is Kosminski still the best suspect we have?

[Scott Nelson]

I think Major Smith of the City Police was aware of the ID and probably sanctioned it, but reluctantly. He interviewed the witness before the ID "parade" to see if any meaningful result would transpire, but the witness told Smith he wouldn't be able to recognize the suspect again. Smith, under pressure from the MET, let it happen anyway.

[Trevor Marriott]

If Kosminski lived in Met territory Trevor wouldn't they be responsible for bringing him to any form of ID [ with great difficulty - Swanson] ? But if Kosminski could be tied to being a suspect in Kate's murder then wouldn't it be the City Police's duty to watch their suspect [ watched by city police , day and night - Swanson ]?

Major Smith head of the City Police makes no mention of this ID or the surveilance operation, and if it took place he would have known as he would have to have authorised another part of the marginalia that is flawed.

As for getting Kosminski off the streets Trev, wouldn't there have been some kind of uproar if he didn't face any sort of court whatsoever [ and it got out, hence perhaps the quietness at the time - 1891 on the suspect ] ? Even if he was unfit to plead and sent straight to an asylum the Police could have at least charged him and maybe draw some kind of line under the case . That's why I personally believe the police watched him day and night. They perhaps had a last ditch attempt at gathering some form of evidence on Kosminski [ if the police had powers such as the french police possess - Anderson ] but at the same time making sure he didn't attempt any more murders or move away. Regards Darryl

Where would the uproar have come from if the result of the ID parade was never made public, it was so secret only two people seem to have knowledge of it taking place Swanson and Anderson, what about all the other police officers who would have to have been involved in such an operation, would they have remained silent over the ensuing years.

If Kosminski was aware of the police suspicion against him would he be stupid enough to give them any more reasons to try to pin the murders on him by going out on the streets looking for victims?

The marginalia is flawed !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

How do you know the ID parade wasn't set up by City Police?

Because there is no record of the City Police carrying out such an operation, and why would they do it for the benefit of the Met ? Did you not read Major Smiths quote from his memoirs?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Darryl Kenyon]

The inference being that the police were keeping covert observations on the house according to the marginalia

But again the practical logistics of what was writtem do not stand up to close scrutiny. According to what was written the ID parade was set up by the Met. Yet when they come back the job of surveilllance was handed to the City police, who were never involved in the parade or asked to provide any of their witnesses.

There are several issues with all of this which again goes to show the marginalia is flawed,

The first is why didnt the Met continue with the surveillance? especially after the trouble they had gone to setting it up

Major Smith mentions nothing of his force being involved in such an operation in fact in his memoirs he stated "he completely beat me and every police officer in London; and I have no more idea now where he lived than I had twenty years ago..."

If Kosminski had been identified as the killer would they have simply took him back to an address where he could have escaped from un-noticed? No

If the ID had taken place as described would the police have wanted him to be in a position to kill again, no they wouldnt they would have had the option to get him sectioned as being mentally unstable and off the streets.

The marginlia s flawed, as is the content, and the question mark that hangs over it is who actually penned it and when and for what purpose?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

If Kosminski lived in Met territory Trevor wouldn't they be responsible for bringing him to any form of ID [ with great difficulty - Swanson] ? But if Kosminski could be tied to being a suspect in Kate's murder then wouldn't it be the City Police's duty to watch their suspect [ watched by city police , day and night - Swanson ]?

As for getting Kosminski off the streets Trev, wouldn't there have been some kind of uproar if he didn't face any sort of court whatsoever [ and it got out, hence perhaps the quietness at the time - 1891 on the suspect ] ? Even if he was unfit to plead and sent straight to an asylum the Police could have at least charged him and maybe draw some kind of line under the case . That's why I personally believe the police watched him day and night. They perhaps had a last ditch attempt at gathering some form of evidence on Kosminski [ if the police had powers such as the french police possess - Anderson ] but at the same time making sure he didn't attempt any more murders or move away.

Regards Darryl

[Scott Nelson]

According to what was written the ID parade was set up by the Met. Yet when they come back the job of surveilllance was handed to the City police, who were never involved in the parade or asked to provide any of their witnesses.

How do you know the ID parade wasn't set up by City Police?

[Trevor Marriott]

You can imagine the police standing in front of the house watching Kosminski night and day, it is not a comfortable situation for the family, there will be no other way except sending him to an asylum and I believe they did that after negotiations with the police.


The Baron

The inference being that the police were keeping covert observations on the house according to the marginalia

But again the practical logistics of what was writtem do not stand up to close scrutiny. According to what was written the ID parade was set up by the Met. Yet when they come back the job of surveilllance was handed to the City police, who were never involved in the parade or asked to provide any of their witnesses.

There are several issues with all of this which again goes to show the marginalia is flawed,

The first is why didnt the Met continue with the surveillance? especially after the trouble they had gone to setting it up

Major Smith mentions nothing of his force being involved in such an operation in fact in his memoirs he stated "he completely beat me and every police officer in London; and I have no more idea now where he lived than I had twenty years ago..."

If Kosminski had been identified as the killer would they have simply took him back to an address where he could have escaped from un-noticed? No

If the ID had taken place as described would the police have wanted him to be in a position to kill again, no they wouldnt they would have had the option to get him sectioned as being mentally unstable and off the streets.

The marginlia s flawed, as is the content, and the question mark that hangs over it is who actually penned it and when and for what purpose?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Paddy]

Yes my thoughts also Baron.....

[The Baron]

You can imagine the police standing in front of the house watching Kosminski night and day, it is not a comfortable situation for the family, there will be no other way except sending him to an asylum and I believe they did that after negotiations with the police.


The Baron

[Paddy]

Yes thats my thoughts Scott.....
On a different subject has anyone any thoughts on this article....Found on Newspapers.com. Lloyds weekly 4th Sept 1887......
William Graham 23 was charged with assaulting Aaron Abrahams of Charlotte street Mile End.
On Friday evening the prosecutor was walking along with a friend when a woman accosted them. The accused punched the prosecutor in the face, knocked him down and then kicked him. Graham made off but was arrested. When arrested Graham said I struck him because he struck a woman... Mr Lushington sentenced Graham to 2 months hard labour

[Scott Nelson]

I'm not sure how this would have set with Wolf Abrahams. His wife Betsy (Jacob's sister) is threatened with a knife by Aaron, but family honor and a bit of convincing by Wolf may have compelled Jacob not to turn Aaron over to the police, opting for a lunacy certification instead. Jacob and Wolf being business partners, and all.

[Paddy]

I was wondering if one of the the witnesses could have been Jacob Cohen who accompanied Kozminski to Colney Hatch. Had he witnessed Aaron attacking hs sister and could she have then retracted the accusation? Maybe he had to then deny that he had seen this?

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor wrote:

-- Is there any evidence to support this ?

You used the term ID parade 5 times in one post alone without anything to support it.

The police guidelines support the use of the term

But we have evidence to support it was a witness-suspect confrontation:

Confronted could mean when the witness took part in a proper ID parade, but that didnt happen any way and the marginalia is not to be relied on and is there any provision in the Victorian police codes of practice for the police to carry out a direct confronation

Swanson says we took the suspect with great difficulty, no mention of the suspect not co-operating with this mythical ID parade, so no reason why a proper Id parade could not have been formed. The police cannot drag a person who is not under arrest and put them on an ID parade.

And why wasnt Kosminski at any time ever arrested for these murders, the police would have to have arrested him before taking him to an Id parade, There is no record of an arrest. The police cannot and would not have risked their case by not conforming to the guidelines after all according to Swanson it wasnt till after the identification that the witness told them he was not going to give evidence

Anderson:

"I will merely add that the only person who had ever had a good view of the murderer unhesitatingly identified the suspect the instant he was confronted with him" The Baron

Was there ever a witness who had a good look at the killer, no there wasnt. So who was this mythical witness? and how come the only two persons who make any mention of such a momentous event in the Ripper investigation are Swanson and Anderson, why no one else then or now.

I doubt Anderson nor Swanson would have had any direct involvement in this ID parade in any event had it taken place

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Simon Wood]

Hi Baron,

Kosminski and the Seaside Home may have been conflated with James Sadler and a Seaman’s Home in Well Street, Whitechapel, where the Ripper suspect had been staying.

Daily Telegraph, 18th February 1891—

“Probably the only trustworthy description of the assassin was that given by a gentleman who, on the night of the Mitre Square murder, noticed in Duke Street, Aldgate, a couple standing under the lamp at the corner of the passage leading to Mitre Square . . . The witness has confronted Sadler and has failed to identify him.”

There was a Ripper suspect, a Jewish witness, a sighting close to Mitre Square, a Seaman’s Home and an unsuccessful identification.

Unhappily, though, for Anderson and Swanson, James Sadler was not Jewish.

Regards,

Simon

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Scott,

Agree, whether they knew or thought he was the murderer or not, the fact that he was mentaly sick person, means he needed medical treatment, and that will help them getting him out of the police hands.


The Baron

But according to swanson the police had him and then took him back to his brothers house, would they have done that to a mentally sick person who had supposed just been identified as a serial killer of course they wouldnt.

If this mythical ID had taken place they would have taken him and got him certified to keep him off the streets not dropped him off at his brothers house.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[The Baron]

Trevor wrote:

-- Is there any evidence to support this ?

You used the term ID parade 5 times in one post alone without anything to support it.

But we have evidence to support it was a witness-suspect confrontation:


Anderson:


"I will merely add that the only person who had ever had a good view of the murderer unhesitatingly identified the suspect the instant he was confronted with him"



The Baron