A Case of Misattribution?

[Bridewell]

The Conspiracy

Hello Colin. Thanks.

"If we go with the notion that Schwartz saw what he claims to have seen, but postulate that he changed the man's description from Jew to Gentile, where does that lead?"

Well, I don't believe he saw anything. I think that Wess and the lads contrived the whole story, again, to avert danger for the club. And, yes, the stress was on his being a Gentile.

It may have been an unnecessary ruse, but from the IWMEC view, it was a sort of insurance policy.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

It's certainly a bold assertion. If true, it exposed everyone who was party to the conspiracy to the risk of life imprisonment. Would they really go to those lengths just to prevent (possibly unsuccessfully) the attachment of suspicion to those frequenting the IWMEC? It would be an insurance policy with a very high premium, that's for sure.

Regards, Bridewell.

[GregBaron]

I wouldn't know him but that's him...

Hello Greg. Thanks. But yet he could not likely pick him out subsequently. And his description is sufficient only to implicate hundreds, perhaps thousands, of London men.

So I'm not sure about protecting Jews.

Cheers.
LC

Points well taken Lynn but wasn't Lawende drug in a couple of years later to identify Grainger? And didn't he in fact finger him. I'm going from memory here. If this is true then he picked out somebody he couldn't pick out! Interesting.

All the descriptions could implicate thousands but one thing the sailor wasn't was a Jew!

All very curious...



Greg

[Cogidubnus]

It's certainly a bold assertion. If true, it exposed everyone who was party to the conspiracy to the risk of life imprisonment. Would they really go to those lengths just to prevent (possibly unsuccessfully) the attachment of suspicion to those frequenting the IWMEC? It would be an insurance policy with a very high premium, that's for sure.

Hi Colin

Actually when you think about it, the man most at risk is Schwartz himself...and the risk isn't actually that high...as a non-English speaker, he can always claim that any discrepancies in his story are down to translational misunderstandings, and that by coming forward he was acting in good faith.

Assuming a small remaining caucus of committee members, they've only got to stick together, and they've cracked it...and as members from birth of of an oppressed minority, I should think they were pretty good at sticking together...

If true, it's a pretty shrewd move actually...

Dave

[lynn cates]

cracking

Hello Colin. Thanks. I don't see the risk. If 2 or 3 of the brighter chaps got together and fed Schwartz the story, how could they have gotten caught--unless one cracked?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

curious

Hello Greg. Thanks. He was indeed. And, yes, ALL very curious.

Last point, Grainger was not Jewish--you are correct.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

great!

Hello Dave. Thanks.

Your assessment of the risk to Schwartz is so bang on that I cannot intelligently add to it.

In fact, IS may have been reciting his Aunt Rebekah's recipe for knish and Wess (if Tom's conjections be true) could translate as he liked.

Well done!

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Lynn,

Wess and the lads were being watched by the cops who, for all we know, might have been on a tea-break at the appointed hour.

Are you suggesting that Israel Schwartz fudged the matter of BS man's ethnicity in order to prevent the murder being pinned on the IWMEC?

Regards,

Simon

That is what Ive been suggesting here and at one time on both Ripper boards Simon.

The ONLY thing that is discussed later about Israel's account by Swanson and Abberline is the "Lipski" element. Since we know antisemitic activities rose after Annie's murder....in part due to the possibly erroneous initial suspicion of a link of the Jew Piser to the crime,..it seems that these crimes had decidedly ethnic perceptions by both the officials and the media.

IF Israel Schwartz fabricated his story in order for the suspicion to be cast off Jews for the moment, Id say he did a great job. Had he only known that someone had other plans that night with a bloody apron and a slightly veiled accusation about Jewish involvement.

Who knows....maybe Israel was sent in to counter act that apron and message....they were both known of when Israel came in Sunday night.

These people were known as anarchists to the Police and the neighbors. Any hint that one of their own was involved would close that Club for good. Israel Schwartz singlehandedly saves their bacon...pardon the pun.

Best regards,

Mike R

[Garry Wroe]

Has it not occurred to anyone that Schwartz might have been an honest witness who simply recounted events to the best of his ability?

[Trevor Marriott]

Has it not occurred to anyone that Schwartz might have been an honest witness who simply recounted events to the best of his ability?

Yes and that what he saw was in no way connected to Stride or the murder

[Cogidubnus]

Has it not occurred to anyone that Schwartz might have been an honest witness who simply recounted events to the best of his ability?
Quick reply to this message

Hi Garry

Yes certainly it's occurred to me, for one...and I hope I have a sufficiently open mind to continue to keep all my options open - but part of the trouble with his testimony, for my part, is that nobody else saw what he saw, nobody else even saw him at the scene...and additionally of course there are the largely unanswered questions about who he actually was, where was he moving from, and what happened to him post 1888...if some of the gaps could be filled, maybe he'd be better trusted, and less regarded as having a theatrical bent...

All the best

Dave

[Abby Normal]

Hi Lynn,

If the Schwartz story is a fiction intended to remove suspicion from members of the IWMEC, why have him witnessing only an assault? Why not, unequivocally, the murder itself? Why not say, overtly that 'it was obvious to me that the man was a Gentile', rather than simply implying it in the description?
In addition, if it would be extremely dangerous to have a Club stooge invent a story of this nature, because there would be every chance that a watching policeman would be able to disprove it. Where would that leave Israel Schwartz in the great scheme of things? Slopping out in Pentonville?

regards, Bridewell.

Exactly. Why not use Diemshutz?

[Hunter]

Who knows....maybe Israel was sent in to counter act that apron and message....they were both known of when Israel came in Sunday night.

I'm afraid they both weren't. The message was hidden from the public for some time.

[Cogidubnus]

Why not use Diemshutz?

Arguably, per some theorists, they did...disguising an earlier discovery of the body...

All the best

Dave

[Abby Normal]

Has it not occurred to anyone that Schwartz might have been an honest witness who simply recounted events to the best of his ability?

Yes which he most probably was.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Dave,

A question. If a group of people needed a cover story to guide the police away from any percieved involvement in a crime, do they not always use a 'plant' to divert any such attention?
It isnt exactly an unknown phenomenon amongst the criminal fraternity, no?

Given this man's indeterminate identity afterwards as well, Id say this non English speaking person was posshbly the perfect foil.

Best wishes

Phil