A Case of Misattribution?

[Bridewell]

Pipeman?

But he would still have seen BS pulling her about from walking behind him, and as he crossed over the road he could have seen the incident just inside the gates.

BS man swings Stride about, drags her back two or three yards into the passageway, she screams but not very loudly as she is being pulled by her scarf or she is been forced down and her throat cut. BS notices Schwartz and verbally abuses him, Schwartz runs off.

Hi Jon,

That seems like a pretty good fit with the known circumstances of her death and with the evidence of Schwartz - except for Pipeman. I'm wondering if Schwartz told the truth in every other respect, but invented Pipeman to justify having fled the scene. That would be one explanation for the man, who had a pipe in his initial account, acquiring a knife in his second.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Colin

Pipeman was probably just one of the many people making their way home. Standing outside the Nelson he wouldn`t have seen anything in the yard, and there was singing going on in the club. I believe he just lit his pipe and went on his way, which might have been in the same direction as Schwartz.

As the knife is not mentioned in his Police statement, I take that detail with a pinch of salt, as some sort of journalistic invention. Maybe added, as you say, to cover Schwartz`s blushes in leaving a woman in peril.

[robhouse]

Hello Rob. I see what you mean.

I wonder, though, if he had not killed her, but had walked away, surely he would not be guilty of a very serious charge? Battery, perhaps?

Cheers.
LC

I take your point Lynn, and have considered this. But I think what is important is the subjective perception of the attacker/killer. If the attack witnessed by Schwartz was "prelude" to murder, then in the mind of the attacker, he would perceive that had been seen in the process of trying to kill her. I do not think the man would be thinking very rationally at this point anyway. Plus, he would have been extremely angry... both at Stride herself, and at the fact that he was seen. So I think he would have killed her anyway, perhaps mainly out of frustration and anger at that point. But he would not hang around to see if Schwartz returned with the police.

RH

[lynn cates]

guilty conscience

Hello Rob. Thanks. I think I understand your point. When one has a guilty conscience, one seems to think everyone is looking my way.

A recurrent theme, by the way, in Hitchcock's works. To say nothing of Dostoevski.

Cheers.
LC

[robhouse]

You can't beat Hitchcock and Dostoevsky in my opinion.

RH

[Scott Nelson]

Well, I think Nick Drake was a better singer.

[lynn cates]

Danger Man

Hello Scott. Ah, but John Drake was a better spy--at least, when a danger man were needed.

Cheers.
LC

[robhouse]

Well, I think Nick Drake was a better singer.

I don't go for that emo stuff.

[Lechmere]

Garry
I have my doubts about the whole Schwartz episode. He may have seen something occur but whatever he may have seen probably did not involve the person known as Jack the Ripper. The whole episode may well have got magnified in intensity in his mind, once he found out that a murder had occurred in that street.
I am inclined to think that if the BS pushing over incident did happen, then if she cried softly it may have been as she didn't feel that threatened (not to the extent of her life being under threat) and as a soliciting prostitute didn't want to attract too much attention.
I doubt that BS man - if he existed - was the murderer of Stride.

The physical evidence pertinent to the attack on Stride suggests it was carried out very quickly. It seems likely to have been botched. People seldom cooperate when a murderer tries to kill them and things can go wrong. Add to that the fact that the Ripper was generally compelled to attack outdoors, and this murder obviously took place outdoors, where other people could interrupt his actions and you are left with a very variable crime scene. It is frankly amazing that there are the common factors that can be shown to link the crimes. Bearing this in mind, the attack on Stride is well within the meaningful paramentere that connect these crimes.

I doubt that Lawende saw the same person as Schwartz and I doubt that Lawende saw the person known as Jack the Ripper.
I also doubt that either Schwartz nor Lawende were the witness talked of with regard to the Seaside Home identification. I think the whole thing was horribly garbled by desk bound senior police officers desperate to validate their careers in later life.

I will repeat that the chances of two unsolved fatal throat cutting knife attacks, outside, on prostitutes within walking distance of each other and within a narrow time frame make it exceptionally unlikley that two hands were at work. These sorts of attacks were exceptionally rare.
That another woman other than Eddowes was killed by a knife elsewhere on the same night does not make it anymore commonplace, quite simply as we know for an iron fact that such attacks were anything but commonplace. It means that this night was statistiaclly perverse in there being three. But the chance that three different knife attackers were out on that night are slim to say the least.
The happenstance that the other, domestic, knife attack did take place that night actually makes it much less likely that Stride was murdered by a different hand to Eddowes.

I don't think that pouring over hysterical witness accounts and self serving Police memoirs gets us any closer to establishing who may or who may not be the culprit, even if these are interesting things to look at for sociological reasons - connected with how the human mind corrupts the data that is fed into it by our senses.

As for Coles I would have to say that there is a good chance that she was kiled by the same person and I would say it should be kept on the file. On balance I think Saddler probably did it - he was very much in the frame, which makes this one quite unlike the other murders. Also to be brutally honest the Coles murder doesn't fit to my mind with being committed by my favoured suspect and so I would have to strike it out for that reason!

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE=Lechmere;227960]Garry

I have my doubts about the whole Schwartz episode. He may have seen something occur but whatever he may have seen probably did not involve the person known as Jack the Ripper.

Totally agree.

The whole episode may well have got magnified in intensity in his mind, once he found out that a murder had occurred in that street.

Very likely.

I am inclined to think that if the BS pushing over incident did happen, then if she cried softly it may have been as she didn't feel that threatened (not to the extent of her life being under threat) and as a soliciting prostitute didn't want to attract too much attention.
I doubt that BS man - if he existed - was the murderer of Stride.

I have always said that, in all my posts on this subject.

The physical evidence pertinent to the attack on Stride suggests it was carried out very quickly. It seems likely to have been botched. People seldom cooperate when a murderer tries to kill them and things can go wrong. Add to that the fact that the Ripper was generally compelled to attack outdoors, and this murder obviously took place outdoors, where other people could interrupt his actions and you are left with a very variable crime scene. It is frankly amazing that there are the common factors that can be shown to link the crimes. Bearing this in mind, the attack on Stride is well within the meaningful paramentere that connect these crimes.

Absolutely agree -adding only the 'perhaps' the Ripper mean't to kill 2 victims that night, and the Stride murder wasn't as botched as all that.

I doubt that Lawende saw the same person as Schwartz and I doubt that Lawende saw the person known as Jack the Ripper.

Gordon Bennett ! We agree, Lechmere ! (the Earth might stop turning !).

I also doubt that either Schwartz nor Lawende were the witness talked of with regard to the Seaside Home identification. I think the whole thing was horribly garbled by desk bound senior police officers desperate to validate their careers in later life.

YESSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!

I will repeat that the chances of two unsolved fatal throat cutting knife attacks, outside, on prostitutes within walking distance of each other and within a narrow time frame make it exceptionally unlikley that two hands were at work. These sorts of attacks were exceptionally rare.

What have you been doing this afternoon , Lechmere ? Too true, blue.

That another woman other than Eddowes was killed by a knife elsewhere on the same night does not make it anymore commonplace, quite simply as we know for an iron fact that such attacks were anything but commonplace. It means that this night was statistiaclly perverse in there being three. But the chance that three different knife attackers were out on that night are slim to say the least.

OMG -Yes, again.

The happenstance that the other, domestic, knife attack did take place that night actually makes it much less likely that Stride was murdered by a different hand to Eddowes.

Yes, true.

I don't think that pouring over hysterical witness accounts and self serving Police memoirs gets us any closer to establishing who may or who may not be the culprit, even if these are interesting things to look at for sociological reasons - connected with how the human mind corrupts the data that is fed into it by our senses.

(Do I really have to be a 'yes' woman, now ?) Yes.

As for Coles I would have to say that there is a good chance that she was kiled by the same person and I would say it should be kept on the file. On balance I think Saddler probably did it - he was very much in the frame, which makes this one quite unlike the other murders. Also to be brutally honest the Coles murder doesn't fit to my mind with being committed by my favoured suspect and so I would have to strike it out for that reason!

WDW !

[GregBaron]

The Master...

You can't beat Hitchcock and Dostoevsky in my opinion.

RH

Don't forget Poe boys.........to which both men were admittedly indebted............Is not "Tell Tale Heart" rather a good story of guilt?



Greg

[Lechmere]

And what may I ask does WDW mean in the English language?

[Bridewell]

Wdw

And what may I ask does WDW mean in the English language?

I want to know the answer to that one too! (My guess is a mis-spelt WOW, but I'm probably going to be horribly embarrassed when I learn the truth).

Regards, Bridewell

[Rubyretro]

'WDW !' is a term that I just learn't today -in an effort to broaden my vocabulary by self education. .

It means 'well done Winner', and is a bingo expression to congratulate those having a Full House

(2TG means '2 to go' for a Full House

Wtg means 'way to go' to 'congratulate' other losers ).

I am a useful and intelligent person, I'm sure. The fact that I would use a bit of my day off memorising a chunk of the Bingo Lingo Dictionary is no indication of anything odd (er...).

(Sorry Lynn -it appears that Bingo Lingo was more immediately attractive to me than brushing up my amo, amas, amat...)

(nb : I have always lost at Bingo ).

[Bridewell]

Mensa

(Sorry Lynn -it appears that Bingo Lingo was more immediately attractive to me than brushing up my amo, amas, amat...)

Hi Ruby,

Amo amas amat? The next step is conversing with tables, isn't it?!

Regards, Bridewell.