A Case of Misattribution?

[lynn cates]

let's discuss

Hello Greg. Actually, IF the story were concocted, it was likely later that day.

The initial discussion would more likely have involved whether to go to the police, drag Liz out of the yard, etc.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Kosminski

Hello Tom. Was that Martin Kosminski? Jessie?

Cheers.
LC

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Without wishing to get embroiled in a contentious debate, it's worth pointing out that conspiracies—and there have been more than a few of varying flavours within my living memory—succeed simply because the vast majority of perfectly reasonable people refuse to believe they could succeed.

This is not to give credibility to the conspiracy industry.

However, disbelief always works in the conspirator's favour.

Regards,

Simon

[GregBaron]

Just a few...

Hello Greg. Actually, IF the story were concocted, it was likely later that day.

The initial discussion would more likely have involved whether to go to the police, drag Liz out of the yard, etc.

Hi Lynn,

Is there any evidence that Schwarz was connected to the club?

Do you believe he was really walking past during the murder?

Why would an anarchist Jew whack Liz Stride and risk a pogrom?

Would the police not investigate Schwarz's contact with club members?


Greg

[robhouse]

Hi Rob. I suppose I just picture Kozminski as looking like his fellow Jewish countrymen, which I imagine to be the very epitome of what makes the Jewish look. More to the point, I'm curious why Phil Carter assumes that BS Man was Jewish, but didn't look Jewish. Ironically (or perhaps not so), the only Jews of the area who come to mind who didn't like religious Jews and who would probably adapt (if not invent) anti-Semitic epithets, are the very Jews who lived and played in the house BS Man stood in front of, and only a street over from Lipski himself. Of course, there's also the grossly ignored Kosminski's of 74 Berner Street who, for some reason, everyone assumes have absolutely no connection to Aaron.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Do you mean Maurice Kosminski, of 70 Berner St?
RH

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Rob, that must be the guy. Everyone knows about him, but no one talks about him. I've tried numerous times to get discussion going about the Berner Street Koz, but it seems they've been written off as irrelevant, and perhaps for good reason, but I'm just hazy on what that reason(s) is.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[robhouse]

Well, Maurice was from Warta Poland, about 40 miles south of Klodawa, where Aaron's family is from. Maruice arrived in England I think in Dec 1889, according to his naturalization record.

There are a lot of Kozminskis around the Kalisch area, and I assume they may have originated in the town Kozmin (which is, incidentally, about halfway between Klodawa and Warta). I would guess that family name goes back into the 18th century and probably earlier. Warta also has a street called "Kozminska" street.

My point being, Kozminski was a common name in that whole area. I figure if you go back a few hundred years, they are all related technically. But I doubt Maurice and Aaron are related closely, if at all.

That said, I do have an interesting Berner Street connection, which will be revealed at my talk in September.

Rob

[Michael W Richards]

That said, I do have an interesting Berner Street connection, which will be revealed at my talk in September.

Rob

I wonder Rob if you or anyone else has followed up on a common belief that one of the International Club members brothers lived in the Model Homes off Goulston?

I recall hearing that bantied about at one time, and thought if you had more intensively researched this murder you might have stumbled across something.

Best regards,

Mike R

[Tom_Wescott]

Israel Sunshine of the Berner Street club lived in the Goulston Street building on which the graffiti was written. Across the street were the Jewish baths, also associated with the Berner Street club, and in at least one of their well-known political marches, they would congregate in Berner Street outside the baths and march the streets to Mitre Square, near the great synagogue.

However, none of this directly relates to the Koz, though I've long suspected he was a socialist/anarchist, and that this was known to Sir Robert Anderson.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Monty]

The baths were on the same side as the dwellings which had the wall writing.

Just a bit further south.

Monty

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Monty. Are you sure there weren't Jewish baths across the street and to the south of the house in question?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

punctus contra punctum

Hello Greg. Thanks.

"Is there any evidence that Schwarz was connected to the club?"

So far as I know, not. But investigation is ongoing.

"Do you believe he was really walking past during the murder?"

Not at all.

"Why would an anarchist Jew whack Liz Stride and risk a pogrom?"

Since I do not subscribe to this view, I had better not answer.

"Would the police not investigate Schwarz's contact with club members?"

Possibly. Depends upon Fred's Hungarian--and getting a straight answer from the members.

Cheers.
LC

[Monty]

Hi Monty. Are you sure there weren't Jewish baths across the street and to the south of the house in question?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

By across the street Tom, what do you mean?

I mean west side of Goulston street.

Monty

[Tom_Wescott]

There's two sides of the street. By across the street, I mean the side that doesn't have the Wentworth model dwellings on it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Cogidubnus]

It’s the nature of the beast, I’m afraid. These crimes were committed at times when the streets were largely deserted of human traffic, making meaningful sightings few and far between.

Hi Garry

Yes, but if Fanny Mortimer's later statements are to be believed, then shouldn't she have seen or heard something of what Schwartz is describing? This, after all, is the woman who can distinguish the heavy steps of a passing constable from within her house, and may (or admittedly may not) have been at her door from 1230am to 1am...

Thus I see nothing suspicious in the mystery surrounding Schwartz’s post-1888 movements. In my experience the solutions to the vast majority of such issues turn out to be simple and eminently mundane – which is why conspiracy theories almost without exception prove to be baseless.

No, nor do I Garry....

I've said all along I've been playing devils advocate here, but admitted I am suspicious of Schwartz...not because of his post-1888 movements though...it's just that he's somehow too conveniently on the scene...and I admit it's more of a gut-feel than anything else...and I note I'm not alone in this feeling...many before have clearly felt the same.

The point I was really trying to make about his history and his post-1888 movements was that if we knew more, that knowledge might help allay some of the suspicions....

With regard to conspiracy theories, I'm always instinctively, deeply suspicious of them

All the best

Dave