A Case of Misattribution?

[Rubyretro]

Hi Ruby,

Amo amas amat? The next step is conversing with tables, isn't it?!

Regards, Bridewell.

Exactly , Bridewell...mensa mensa mensam ? (er... book 1 page 2) mensae ?

[Cogidubnus]

Amo amas amat? The next step is conversing with tables, isn't it?!

No Colin, our next step was conversing with "puella" - but it was after all a single-sex boys grammar school and we were, therefore, somewhat obsessed with the subjecy of "puella" !

Dave

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE]

No Colin, our next step was conversing with "puella" - but it was after all a single-sex boys grammar school and we were, therefore, somewhat obsessed with the subjecy of "puella" !

Dave

Homo, hominis, homini ? I went to a girl's school, Dave.

[Cogidubnus]

I went to a girl's school, Dave.

Somewhere in Sussex?

Dave

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

I was thinking about a few questions that trouble me when assessing Israels story, and I thought it might be helpful to some others doing the same;

1) What was the address Israels wife was moving from that Saturday?
2) Did the translator used at his statement know Israel and vouch for him?
3) Why didnt Spooner and his date see Israel exiting Berner Street at 12:45ish?
4) Since Fanny heard bootsteps when not at the door, how is it that she missed Israels and the Pipemans?
5) What is the only portion of Israels statement that is mentioned in later internal memorandum?
6) Did Israel see Morris Eagle going from the front door to the club side entrance inside the gates as he approached?
7) Did Morris Eagle or Joe Lave see anyone at all on the street in either direction at around 12:40?
8) Had Israel ever attended that club? Was he a member?
9) Who translated for Israel and how was that arranged?
10) Do we know if anyone was interviewed to substantiate any of Israels statement?
11) Do we have any hard evidence that Israel Schwartz gave testimony at the formal Inquest into Liz Strides murder, or that he was a protected witness kept from the proceedings?
12) When he was interviewed by the police, what occupation did he give them?
13) Did anyone in the press do a follow up interview with Israel Schwartz after that weekend?
14) If Lawende is the witness that is supposed to have been "the only person who saw the Ripper", then what possible value does Israel Schwartz's sighting have to the Ripper investigations?
15) If Schwartz is the witness that was "the only person to have seen the Ripper", then why is Lawende called in years later to identify someone thought to be a suspect in the Whitechapel killings?

I realize that I and many others could add lots of other questions to this list, but my point is really to illustrate how little we know about Israel, what specific information he gave via his translator, and how contradictory that is to any other witness we know of in these cases.

Every witness is interviewed, and the facts were checked as well as could be. You can bet someone went to The Victorian after George Hutchinson said he stayed there. You can bet Harris and Levy were asked to verify that they were with Lawende that night at that time, you can feel safe in assuming that every story by every relevant person was investigated for authenticity.

The problem with Israel is for every question I can think of regarding his story there is no information available that can be used for verification.

Including the actual story as told to the Detective that Sunday night. That report is missing or gone.

There are too many unknowns and zero reassurances. Abberline and Swanson saying they believed the story in internal memos doesnt reassure me.

Best regards,

Mike R

[lynn cates]

Romans go home!

Hello Ruby. You mean, "Romani ite domum"?

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Mike

I'd guess you and Lynn are singing from similar Hymnsheets here, (and even Tom was once considering becoming a choirboy)...

Perhaps I'm over-presumptuous though regarding any theory you might or might not subscribe to!

Trouble is, as Tom once quite rightly commented to one of my posts, there's no proof and we simply don't know enough about the man at this stage...interesting though...

All the best

Dave

[Abby Normal]

Perhaps he did, and it was so quick that Schwartz did not realise he had witnessed her murder.

Hi Jon
Absolutely. I have always thought this coud be very possible-Scwartz may have actually seen her getting her throat cut by BS man.

[lynn cates]

May the Schwartz be with you!

Hello Dave. IF Schwartz's story is true, then I have no doubt that BS man killed Liz. But after the assault, I'd like to know WHEN the cachous came out and why.

Christer used to have an almost passing story here--I mean the old, Pre-Lechmere, Christer.

But Tom is right: we cannot state definitively whether Schwartz is lying or not.

Hence . . .

Cheers.
LC

[Rubyretro]

Somewhere in Sussex?

Dave

Yes. How did you guess that ?? (Burgess Hill !).

[Simon Wood]

Hi Lynn,

If Schwartz was lying why did Swanson go to such gymnastic lengths to factor his story into the murder-interruptus scenario?

Regards,

Simon

[Garry Wroe]

I have my doubts about the whole Schwartz episode. He may have seen something occur but whatever he may have seen probably did not involve the person known as Jack the Ripper.

I fully concur, Lechmere.

People seldom cooperate when a murderer tries to kill them and things can go wrong.

But that’s my point, Lechmere. Whoever he was, Jack the Ripper had developed a mode of attack that left his victims powerless to resist. He seized them by the throat in order to immobilize them, laid them on their backs, then cut their throats with a ferocity such that his knife gouged the spinal column. Forget about the mutilations. Think for a moment about the immolatory phase of the crime. This same sequence occurred with Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and, to a large extent, Kelly. But it didn’t occur with Stride. Today any competent crime analyst would note these discrepancies and exclude the possibility of common authorship until such time as emergent evidence indicated otherwise.

I will repeat that the chances of two unsolved fatal throat cutting knife attacks, outside, on prostitutes within walking distance of each other and within a narrow time frame make it exceptionally unlikley that two hands were at work. These sorts of attacks were exceptionally rare.

You may rest assured that statistical crime analyses do not work in the way you and others appear to imagine. A crime analyst would systematically examine the Ripper’s known behaviours and then determine which if any of these behaviours occurred in the Berner Street crime. Then and only then would a probability analysis be undertaken, this providing a mathematical determination as to the statistical likelihood of the Stride crime being linked to the overall series. The one thing a crime analyst wouldn’t and couldn’t do is to make such a determination based upon a frequency distribution of generalized knife crime. That would be akin to measuring a person’s height in pounds and ounces.

I doubt that Lawende saw the same person as Schwartz …

You and me both, Lechmere.

… and I doubt that Lawende saw the person known as Jack the Ripper.

I think it overwhelmingly probable that he did.

As for Coles I would have to say that there is a good chance that she was kiled by the same person and I would say it should be kept on the file.

That’s interesting.

On balance I think Saddler probably did it - he was very much in the frame, which makes this one quite unlike the other murders.

Very interesting. Curious too, Lechmere, since you are putting Sadler in the frame for the entire Ripper series despite the fact that he wasn’t in London when the earlier murders were committed.

Also to be brutally honest the Coles murder doesn't fit to my mind with being committed by my favoured suspect and so I would have to strike it out for that reason!

That’s refreshingly honest, Lechmere. Now try setting aside your preconceptions and examine the Stride murder purely on an evidential basis.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Ruby

Have PM'd you to avoid going even further off-topic!

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

credo . . .

Hello Simon. Simplest answer: he believed it.

Cheers.
LC

[Simon Wood]

Hi Lynn,

Hard to say. Swanson arm-wrestled the evidence.

On the one hand he wrote—

"If Schwartz is to be believed, and the police report of his statement casts no doubt upon it . . ."

On the other hand, he went on to postulate that between the Schwartz incident and the 1.00 am discovery in Dutfields Yard Stride had a second violent encounter. This occasioned puzzled marginalia in his 19th October report and, if true, made Elizabeth Stride possibly the most unfortunate unfortunate in history.

Regards,

Simon