When did investigators start watching Kozminski?

[Simon Wood]

Macnaghten’s second suspect in his memorandum was a Polish Jew, “Kosminski”, who “was removed to an asylum about March 1889”.

This date was wildly off the mark, but at a casual glance a measure of cause and effect could be drawn from James Monro’s 15th March 1889 report informing the Home Secretary that the extra Whitechapel patrols “had now ceased.”

But as Macnaghten was not appointed Assistant Chief Constable until June 1889, he could not have had any first hand knowledge of this alleged event.

Also, what Macnaghten neglected to explain was why, if Kosminski was the murderer and subsequently removed to an asylum, four months later in a report to the Home Office dated 17th July 1889, Metropolitan Police Commissioner James Monro “was inclined to believe” that the murderer of Alice McKenzie was “identical with the notorious Jack the Ripper of last year.”

Macnaghten was talking BS.

[MrBarnett]

But you are forgetting Eddowes murder came under the jurisdiction of The City Police.Their one and only murder in the series. They may well have had a better relationship with the press than the Met.

I would suggest that if this ID had have happened as was intimated then there would be no reason to withhold the suspect description because they has nothing else to work with on the investigation.

After all they did issue a description of the victim, so why not a suspect ?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Perhaps because the description might have been so generic as to be useless in identifying the killer and anyone looking remotely like the description might have been lynched?

[Paddy]

Batman.

This is all very compelling. You can see why they would take an interest in him if there were different lines of facts popping up like this.

So would the door-to-door searches that happened during Anderson's holiday be able to explain them first coming into contact with Aaron?

I didn't think clearly that the door-to-door checking would obviously have extended itself to Stride's region of murder. Since they believe the double event was related why wouldn't they?

Swanson's 19th October report is after 11th October which is 11 days after the double event.

Do you think they moved out because they got searched?

Some of my personal views :
1) They went up to Cheetham Manchester to ask help of Betsy's brother Jacob Cohen.

2) Aaron went to live and guard the shop in Carter lane that may have been already established. Remember he was caught with unmuzzled dog in the city in 1889 and said it was Jacobs.

3) Aaron was sent away by the Jewish Board for a rest like they did Pizar.

4 I do think there is some connection with the kuers at 22 Batty street

I would have thought he was sent away as Betsy was pregnant she later lost the child born too early.

I don't know why Rebecca was kept off school though maybe she was sent away to a relative? Might pay to look at manchester school records for those 6 months?
Pat.....

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor, you of all people should know the police did not share their suspect descriptions with the press.
The press uniformly ridiculed the Metropolitan Police for not sharing what they learned about the case, so why would you expect the police to tell the press anything?
This seems to be a common misunderstanding here.

The fact we occasionally read these obviously official descriptions in the press is due to a reporter hand copying the poster from the station notice board.
As was the case below....

Quote.

"A correspondent forwards copies of descriptions of certain men who were last seen in the company of the woman who was murdered in Berner-street and of the woman who was mutilated in Mitre-square. These authentic descriptions, we have reason to know, have been secretly circulated by the authorities of Scotland-yard since Oct. 26, but the complete details have never been made public. This reticence is one of the mysteries of police administration, and it is difficult to find an explanation to account for the fact that this important information has been "confidentially communicated" to police-officers throughout the kingdom, but has been withheld from the people who have had the best opportunities of seeing and of, therefore, recognising the assassin. The point which the police appear to have been at most pains to suppress is the significant one that the unknown murderer has the "appearance of a sailor."

The notice is headed: "Apprehensions sought. Murder. Metropolitan Police District"; and it proceeds:

"The woodcut sketches, purporting to resemble the persons last seen with the murdered women, which have appeared in The Daily Telegraph, were not authorised by police. The following are the descriptions of the persons seen:

At 12.35 a.m., 30th September, with Elizabeth Stride, found murdered at one a.m., same date, in Berner-street - A man, aged 28, height 5ft 8in, complexion dark, small dark moustache; dress, black diagonal coat, hard felt hat, collar and tie; respectable appearance; carried a parcel wrapped up in a newspaper.

At 12.45 a.m., 30th, with same woman, in Berner-street, a man, aged about 30, height 5ft 5in, complexion fair, hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shoulders; dress, dark jacket and trousers, black cap with peak.

"Information to be forwarded to the Metropolitan Police Office, Great Scotland-yard London, S.W.

"At 1.35 a.m., 30th Sept., with Catherine Eddows, in Church-passage, leading to Mitre-square, where she was found murdered at 1.45 a.m., same date, a man, age 30, height 5ft 7 or 8in., complexion fair, moustache fair, medium build; dress, pepper-and-salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap, with peak of the same material, reddish neckerchief tied in knot; appearance of a sailor.

"Information respecting this man to be forwarded to Inspector M'William, 26, Old Jewry, London, E.C."

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/daily_telegraph/dt881112.html

These 'wanted' posters circulated internally are of men who are suspected to have been the killer, ie; "the person last seen" with the victims.

But you are forgetting Eddowes murder came under the jurisdiction of The City Police.Their one and only murder in the series. They may well have had a better relationship with the press than the Met.

I would suggest that if this ID had have happened as was intimated then there would be no reason to withhold the suspect description because they has nothing else to work with on the investigation.

After all they did issue a description of the victim, so why not a suspect ?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Scott Nelson]

Presumably you are referring to July 12, 1890, when a brother of his brought Koz. to Mile End Old Town Workhouse for a short stay, then in Feb. 1891 when he was re-admitted?

I don't see the connection between Anderson's claim that as a result of the house-to-house in Sept-Oct. 1888, they concluded the Ripper was a low class Jew, and the activity concerning Kozminski almost two years later. Especially as we are to believe (per Simon) that Kozminski didn't live in the search area.

No, I'm referring to some unspecified time after the house to house search. And I don't think it had anything to do with the former hairdresser, Aaron Kosminski.

[Batman]

As Kozminski's brother Woolfe appeared to be the main care giver and gave his address when Aaron was taken to be assessed at Mile End Infirmary. Is it possible that Aaron could have lived with them.

Attached is a school record of Rebecca Abrahams, Woolfe's daughter.
If you examine it, it shows two other addresses and the fact that she was taken out of one school when they were living in Provident street in October 1888.
Reading further one can see an alteration of her birth year. Chris Phillips thought this was to hide her being out of school for 6 months as the school board were very strict and her final school noted this....

So what happened? Why did the family move on 11th October and where did they go? Why was Rebecca taken out of school ?

Pat.......

This is all very compelling. You can see why they would take an interest in him if there were different lines of facts popping up like this.

So would the door-to-door searches that happened during Anderson's holiday be able to explain them first coming into contact with Aaron?

I didn't think clearly that the door-to-door checking would obviously have extended itself to Stride's region of murder. Since they believe the double event was related why wouldn't they?

Swanson's 19th October report is after 11th October which is 11 days after the double event.

Do you think they moved out because they got searched?

[Paddy]

As Kozminski's brother Woolfe appeared to be the main care giver and gave his address when Aaron was taken to be assessed at Mile End Infirmary. Is it possible that Aaron could have lived with them.

Attached is a school record of Rebecca Abrahams, Woolfe's daughter.
If you examine it, it shows two other addresses and the fact that she was taken out of one school when they were living in Provident street in October 1888.
Reading further one can see an alteration of her birth year. Chris Phillips thought this was to hide her being out of school for 6 months as the school board were very strict and her final school noted this....

So what happened? Why did the family move on 11th October and where did they go? Why was Rebecca taken out of school ?

Pat.......

[Batman]

The whole question as to where Kozminski/Kosminski was living at the time of the murders is thoroughly examined in a well-researched and documented article by Pat Marshall and Chris Phillips in Ripperologist No. 128. Their research shows that at the time of the Stride/Eddowes murders, Kosminski's brother, Woolf Abramson, with whom he was living at the time, resided at No. 25 Providence Street, about two blocks from Dutfield's Court. Kosminski/Abramson had lived at that address from 28 November, 1887, to 20 March, 1888. His daughter, Rebecca, attended Berner Street School during that period, and her birth record shows she was born 20 March, 1882, at 38 Berner St., only a few doors from Dutfield's Yard.

Dr. John

Wow. This is pretty interesting.

[Dr. John Watson]

New Light on Aaron Kozminski

The whole question as to where Kozminski/Kosminski was living at the time of the murders is thoroughly examined in a well-researched and documented article by Pat Marshall and Chris Phillips in Ripperologist No. 128. Their research shows that at the time of the Stride/Eddowes murders, Kosminski's brother, Woolf Abramson, with whom he was living at the time, resided at No. 25 Providence Street, about two blocks from Dutfield's Court. Kosminski/Abramson had lived at that address from 28 November, 1887, to 20 March, 1888. His daughter, Rebecca, attended Berner Street School during that period, and her birth record shows she was born 20 March, 1882, at 38 Berner St., only a few doors from Dutfield's Yard.

Dr. John

[Wickerman]

If it did ever happen the police would have made mention of it, and the description given to the press.

Trevor, you of all people should know the police did not share their suspect descriptions with the press.
The press uniformly ridiculed the Metropolitan Police for not sharing what they learned about the case, so why would you expect the police to tell the press anything?
This seems to be a common misunderstanding here.

The fact we occasionally read these obviously official descriptions in the press is due to a reporter hand copying the poster from the station notice board.
As was the case below....

Quote.

"A correspondent forwards copies of descriptions of certain men who were last seen in the company of the woman who was murdered in Berner-street and of the woman who was mutilated in Mitre-square. These authentic descriptions, we have reason to know, have been secretly circulated by the authorities of Scotland-yard since Oct. 26, but the complete details have never been made public. This reticence is one of the mysteries of police administration, and it is difficult to find an explanation to account for the fact that this important information has been "confidentially communicated" to police-officers throughout the kingdom, but has been withheld from the people who have had the best opportunities of seeing and of, therefore, recognising the assassin. The point which the police appear to have been at most pains to suppress is the significant one that the unknown murderer has the "appearance of a sailor."

The notice is headed: "Apprehensions sought. Murder. Metropolitan Police District"; and it proceeds:

"The woodcut sketches, purporting to resemble the persons last seen with the murdered women, which have appeared in The Daily Telegraph, were not authorised by police. The following are the descriptions of the persons seen:

At 12.35 a.m., 30th September, with Elizabeth Stride, found murdered at one a.m., same date, in Berner-street - A man, aged 28, height 5ft 8in, complexion dark, small dark moustache; dress, black diagonal coat, hard felt hat, collar and tie; respectable appearance; carried a parcel wrapped up in a newspaper.

At 12.45 a.m., 30th, with same woman, in Berner-street, a man, aged about 30, height 5ft 5in, complexion fair, hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shoulders; dress, dark jacket and trousers, black cap with peak.

"Information to be forwarded to the Metropolitan Police Office, Great Scotland-yard London, S.W.

"At 1.35 a.m., 30th Sept., with Catherine Eddows, in Church-passage, leading to Mitre-square, where she was found murdered at 1.45 a.m., same date, a man, age 30, height 5ft 7 or 8in., complexion fair, moustache fair, medium build; dress, pepper-and-salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap, with peak of the same material, reddish neckerchief tied in knot; appearance of a sailor.

"Information respecting this man to be forwarded to Inspector M'William, 26, Old Jewry, London, E.C."

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/daily_telegraph/dt881112.html

These 'wanted' posters circulated internally are of men who are suspected to have been the killer, ie; "the person last seen" with the victims.

[Batman]

Funnily enough, if I am correct in my assessment of the door to door search area. Then Flower and Dean St is almost smack in the centre of it. Which I believe is the street at least one geographical profiler surmised Jack might live.

It is also where Eddowes said she would go to meet up with John Kelly again.

Look where George's Yard Building is. Put a compass point there and draw concentric circles outwards to all the crimes and even the bloody apron piece.

The saying is "Don't take a dump where you eat."

[Trevor Marriott]

Or do we believe only one person had a good look at the killer?

I would rather believe in fairies than believe that story

If it did ever happen the police would have made mention of it, and the description given to the press.

We get back to another uncorroborated statement made by a senior police officer in later years, there are enough examples of this, along with officers opinions to make up a book all on their own perhaps titled "The A-Z of police officers opinions"

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Funnily enough, if I am correct in my assessment of the door to door search area. Then Flower and Dean St is almost smack in the centre of it. Which I believe is the street at least one geographical profiler surmised Jack might live.

[Wickerman]

No one ever saw the killer, and with that no one could have heard him speak.

Or do we believe only one person had a good look at the killer?

Kosminski is a very poor suspect, and certainly not the prime suspect many make him out to be...

We do agree on that much.

[Fisherman]

It's the same old pin placing on maps but with added mathematics. The attacks are very concentric as if JtR was moving from a central point outwards in all directions.

What's even more interesting is that Martha Tabram's body is in the middle of it all.

Looks like he may have taken a dump in his own yard and realized it was too close to home and so moved outwards to take the heat off.

It´s either that or he lived in 22 Doveton Street, worked in Broad Street and had relatives and friends centered around Berner Street. There are options, you know ...