When did investigators start watching Kozminski?

[Sam Flynn]

A serial killer is unlikely. Two in the same 9km^2 at the same time is highly unlikely. It's all unlikely stuff, but the facts are what they are. It doesn't make him JtR but these MO barrier changes are not barriers at all IMO.

As far as we know, Klosowski wasn't even a one-off killer, never mind a serial one, in 1888. In fact, all the evidence we have shows that he wouldn't become a "first-time killer" until several years later. Even if Klosowski was resident in Whitechapel in 1888 (and that's by no means certain), his presence wouldn't have doubled the district's serial killer "quota" in any case, because he had probably yet to kill anyone at that time.

[Batman]

Now, if you cannot offer any examples on account of them not being there - and it is not the same as Rader moving from killer to complainter, but instead a case of moving from urge-induced very intimate and hands-on murders, digging into other peoples bodies with a sharp implement, to the cool and distanced method of poisoning other people - I suggest that our debate has come to an end.

I am not going to give special treatment to eviscerators when it comes to MO changes. There is no barrier to them committing other crimes. In fact, this is why we search current prisoners to see if the SKs could be incarcerated for a completely different crime or even a similar crime that was never linked. They are human beings committing crimes. The idea the JtR murderer couldn't find the balls to open a bottle of poison and kill someone is a farce. Just think about it for two seconds. It's a misunderstanding that Serial Killers can't commit other crimes. In fact, these are the very people who would have no trouble to open up a bottle of poison and kill someone. Hence why they are candidates. All this stuff about Chapman can't change his MO is late 80s, early 90s nonsense that has well been undermined by 30-40 years of forensic psychology.

Bet you we can find poisoners who murdered people by other means also, no problem.

The special treatment for eviscerators is something I don't think is even present in the professional literature on the matter, namely peer-reviewed forensic psychology papers.

[Fisherman]

I am not sure if you understand what I said here. Two serial killers operating at the same time in a 9km^2 area is unheard of.

Serial killers operating in the same area at different time periods is another matter. You will find that.



I can't show you that.

However, that doesn't mean MO changes from JtR style murders to poisonings can't happen.

It is like me asking, name another serial killer who changed their MO from serial suffocations to serial harassment as a compliance officer.

You can't. Neither can I.

However, he exists. Dennis Rader is his name.

Believe me, I understand exactly what you are saying. And there are examples of overlapping serial killers. The geographical angle is a bit moot, since 1888 did not offer the same means of movement as we have nowadays. But it should be of interest that the FBI recently presented a list of around 500 unsolved so called highway murders in USA. Many of those killings will be parts of serial killer series, and that tells me that these creatures can operate quite close to each other in spades. It would be odd in the extreme if no two killers crossed ways geographically with those numbers!

Evisceration killers, however, are another ilk. They are very, very rare. They murder on account of a wish to cut people up and cut their organs out. Such people will NOT convert to poisoning. Which is why you cannot name a single example. What you can do is to profess to a belief that such a thing could happen, which brings us back to your original point - the one of failing to understand things. It seems to me you have fallen victim to that parameter.

Now, if you cannot offer any examples on account of them not being there - and it is not the same as Rader moving from killer to complainter, but instead a case of moving from urge-induced very intimate and hands-on murders, digging into other peoples bodies with a sharp implement, to the cool and distanced method of poisoning other people - I suggest that our debate has come to an end.

[Batman]

There are no similarities! The similarities are what tells us that the same killer is at work, and they are not there to even the smallest of degrees.

Have you ever heard of Atteridgeville? It is in South Africa. There, a man called Elias Xitavhudzi killed 16 people in the sixties. Another killer, Johannes Mashiane, murdered 12 victims there in 1982-89. And Moses Sithole, South Africas most prolific serial killer started his killing career (that encompassed 38 murders) there. He was active 1994-95.

I am not sure if you understand what I said here. Two serial killers operating at the same time in a 9km^2 area is unheard of.

Serial killers operating in the same area at different time periods is another matter. You will find that.

And when you will give me a single example of a serialist who moved from intimate knife work murders to poisoning - or anything of that character. So far, you have been totally quite on that score...

I can't show you that.

However, that doesn't mean MO changes from JtR style murders to poisonings can't happen.

It is like me asking, name another serial killer who changed their MO from serial suffocations to serial harassment as a compliance officer.

You can't. Neither can I.

However, he exists. Dennis Rader is his name.

[Fisherman]

Wait a moment. Why can't Chapman be refraining from behaving like JtR again if he is JtR? Is there something stopping him cooling off, changing MO and then going at it again at a latter date? Nothing at all, except the gallows which he got.

EAR was a rapist. While he had murders under his belt, he wasn't shooting his victims. As ONS he bludgeoned his victims to death and some were not raped. He would shoot when in a confrontation though but basically, he bashed their heads in with a log of wood or lamp. From shooting to bashing heads in with a block of wood are two different types of murders. That is why ONS murders in themselves were not linked up and not linked to EAR formally until DNA demonstrated it.

Israel Keyes had no victim profile. He murdered people in a variety of ways and places and most never linked until he came forward to confess to them.

Clifford Olson.

Todd Kohlhepp.

Henry Lee Lucas discusses how he changed his MO.

Richard Kuklinski found all sorts of ways to murder people that varied and some that didn't murder them.

List goes on and on.

Chapman could have cooled off and stopped. It is warming up again and returning as an entirely different killer, having adapted a totally different method of killing that is impossible. Not only would he have moved from eviscerations to poisoning, he would also have moved from killing strangers out in the streets to killing fiancées in his own home. It is steeper than K2.

Which of the killers you name here moved from a totally intimate and hands on method of killing to a distanced method, involving no physical contact?

I would also advice against using Kuklinski in this context. He was a mobster hitman, and he may well have been ordered to do what he did to a significant extent. A mobster hitman is not a serial killer in the true meaning of the word.

Had a quick look at Keyes, as I did not remember his name. He has three confirmed murders, he may have links to as much as eleven murders. As far as we know, his murders were violent and involved rape and shooting. So a very violent character, therefore. Nothing like a posioner at all!

And Kohlhepp? Seven murders, all by way of shooting? Why name him?

We are not looking for killers who used various weapons when committing violent murders. If we were, we could have stopped at Peter Kürten.

We are looking for killers who had one streak of violent, intimate murders under their belt - and another one involving as distanced a method as poisoning.

They are not there, quite simply. The closest I come is once again Kürten, whose killings were all violent affairs. He was a full-blown sadist, and would not deny himself the pleasure of the physical murder act. But he actually claimed to fantasize about killing whole cities by means of poisoning the drinking water.

That, Batman, is as far as you are ever going to get. And it is not nearly enough.

[Fisherman]

A serial killer is unlikely. Two in the same 9km^2 at the same time is highly unlikely. It's all unlikely stuff, but the facts are what they are. It doesn't make him JtR but these MO barrier changes are not barriers at all IMO.

There are no similarities! The similarities are what tells us that the same killer is at work, and they are not there to even the smallest of degrees.

Have you ever heard of Atteridgeville? It is in South Africa. There, a man called Elias Xitavhudzi killed 16 people in the sixties. Another killer, Johannes Mashiane, murdered 12 victims there in 1982-89. And Moses Sithole, South Africas most prolific serial killer started his killing career (that encompassed 38 murders) there. He was active 1994-95.

California is another hotbed of serial killings. There are probably more than a hundred serialists to account for in that state alone.

They can be around in numbers in small areas and in overlapping eras, Batman. I remember one case where victims found alongside the railway tracks of some town had different killers, even.

What has never happened, though, is that two eviscerating serial killers have been present in the same city in overlapping times. And that a serial killer has gone from evisceration murders lead on by an urge to poison murders.

I wonder where you will go from here? And when you will give me a single example of a serialist who moved from intimate knife work murders to poisoning - or anything of that character. So far, you have been totally quite on that score...?

[Batman]

I have little doubt that Rader will have been a control freak as a killer too. Control will quite probably have been the ingredient he relished most during his murders.

His refraining from murder does not make him a good comparison to a man who goes from arguably the most intimate and hands-on type of murder to a distanced career as a poisoner. There is nothing apt in the comparison at all in my view.

What other serial killer has engaged in two such different types of murder? I ask you again. If you have no examples, then just say so.

Wait a moment. Why can't Chapman be refraining from behaving like JtR again if he is JtR? Is there something stopping him cooling off, changing MO and then going at it again at a latter date? Nothing at all, except the gallows which he got.

EAR was a rapist. While he had murders under his belt, he wasn't shooting his victims. As ONS he bludgeoned his victims to death and some were not raped. He would shoot when in a confrontation though but basically, he bashed their heads in with a log of wood or lamp. From shooting to bashing heads in with a block of wood are two different types of murders. That is why ONS murders in themselves were not linked up and not linked to EAR formally until DNA demonstrated it.

Israel Keyes had no victim profile. He murdered people in a variety of ways and places and most never linked until he came forward to confess to them.

Clifford Olson.

Todd Kohlhepp.

Henry Lee Lucas discusses how he changed his MO.

Richard Kuklinski found all sorts of ways to murder people that varied and some that didn't murder them.

List goes on and on.

[Batman]

I accept that killers can change their MO. It is in evidence, so I would not refute it.
What I would refute, however, is that a serial killer with an urge for cutting and eviscerating would turn into a serial poisoner. That will not happen, as far as I´m concerned. It is completely unlikely for reasons that should be obvious.

A serial killer is unlikely. Two in the same 9km^2 at the same time is highly unlikely. It's all unlikely stuff, but the facts are what they are. It doesn't make him JtR but these MO barrier changes are not barriers at all IMO.

[Fisherman]

I have pointed this out several times but maybe I need to actually go into the details.

BTK murdered a family violently. He was a bondage freak. He strangled/suffocated most of his victims. This was a close one to one contact with a victim. He murdered 10 people this way.

His last victim was 1991.

14 years later, and with no murders, or even so much as an assault, we find Rader is still breaking the law and gaining power over women and families, but in a totally different way. He is a compliance officer using this as cover to extract psychological terror on his victims. He doesn't even touch them. One of his victims was his co-worker Mary Capps. She is psychologically damaged because of him. He was patrolling looking for dog poop so he could deliberately invade people's lives. Measured their lawn height with a yardstick.

Here is one of his victims - https://youtu.be/UHPz931jO3A?t=2005

It was being the "King of Park City" that satisfied him.

From Serial Killer to Compliance Officer. He wasn't even murdering. Chapman poisoned.

I have little doubt that Rader will have been a control freak as a killer too. Control will quite probably have been the ingredient he relished most during his murders.

His refraining from murder does not make him a good comparison to a man who goes from arguably the most intimate and hands-on type of murder to a distanced career as a poisoner. There is nothing apt in the comparison at all in my view.

What other serial killer has engaged in two such different types of murder? I ask you again. If you have no examples, then just say so.

[Fisherman]

I am not denying that they can learn from others. I am just refuting the idea Chapman wouldn't have changed a MO because it's a modern thing.

I said that is no reason to reject that he can change his MO because he can come up with the idea himself. If you accept that latter, that he can independently acquire such knowledge meaning he can change his MO. So no barrier there. That's all I have been saying on this point and haven't changed it.

I accept that killers can change their MO. It is in evidence, so I would not refute it.
What I would refute, however, is that a serial killer with an urge for cutting and eviscerating would turn into a serial poisoner. That will not happen, as far as I´m concerned. It is completely unlikely for reasons that should be obvious.

[Batman]

I do, and it's excellent; I even have a credit in it

Again - this was not his trial, but his initial hearing at Southwark Police Court prior to his trial at the Old Bailey. So your assertion that he "dressed like a sailor at his trial" was incorrect, as I've already pointed said.

The fact that a Daily Mail reporter described him thus does not mean that he was "dressed like a sailor", anymore than someone wearing cowboy boots means that they're dressed like a cowboy. A journalist might describe them thus, but that's just a way of conveying a picture to the reader. From contemporary illustrations, he seems to have been wearing fairly ordinary clothes, the cap notwithstanding.

If your Kindle copy of Helena's book contains illustrations, one of them shows him leaving the Police Court, and there are others of him during those proceedings; even a couple of mugshot photos. In none of these does he look much like a sailor to me.

It's obviously an observation by someone who was there, unlike us. I know you might not like that he is described as wearing a nautical cap and navy style clothing but it's a fact of the matter. He even bought a boat. The Mosquito. Donned his nautical suit and P&O cap and boasted that he one day cross the Boulogue.

If you have read her book then you are doing your best to miss all this.

[Sam Flynn]

If you have the book I referenced it referenced that article and a few others. Do you have that book?

I do, and it's excellent; I even have a credit in it

Here is a quote from the book.

Pressmen saw Chapman for the very first time. The Daily Mail said he appeared ‘haggard and distressed’, and that his fingers ‘clutched in agitation’ at his nautical pilot’s cap. The blue of his double-breasted, serge sailor’s suit ‘intensified his pallor, and he seemed to feel the full significance of the accusation’.

Again - this was not his trial, but his initial hearing at Southwark Police Court prior to his trial at the Old Bailey. So your assertion that he "dressed like a sailor at his trial" was incorrect, as I've already pointed said.

The fact that a Daily Mail reporter described him thus does not mean that he was "dressed like a sailor", anymore than someone wearing cowboy boots means that they're dressed like a cowboy. A journalist might describe them thus, but that's just a way of conveying a picture to the reader. From contemporary illustrations, he seems to have been wearing fairly ordinary clothes, the cap notwithstanding.

If your Kindle copy of Helena's book contains illustrations, one of them shows him leaving the Police Court, and there are others of him during those proceedings; even a couple of mugshot photos. In none of these does he look much like a sailor to me.

[Abby Normal]

That's not quite true - Kłosowski wasn't a surgeon in the modern "western" sense. If we were looking for Jack the Boil-Lancer you might be onto something.

LOL! good one Sam!

[Abby Normal]

Probably? What change could be bigger...?

well not Torso man to ripper-that's for sure! : )

[Sam Flynn]

Known surgical experience.

That's not quite true - Kłosowski wasn't a surgeon in the modern "western" sense. If we were looking for Jack the Boil-Lancer you might be onto something.