When did investigators start watching Kozminski?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

City Police Inspector Robert Sagar on watching a suspicious suspect: We watched him carefully. There was no doubt that this man was insane, and after a time his friends thought it advisable to have him removed to a private asylum. After he was removed, there were no more Ripper atrocities.

An additional bit from Sagar's retirement in the City Press January 1905 stated that "suspicion fell upon a man, who, without a doubt, was the murderer. Identification being impossible, he could not be charged"

Aside from the "private asylum", this pretty much dovetails with the Swanson marginalia.

Does it?


Sagar's suspect worked in Butcher's Row.

Swanson's suspect was unemployed.

Sagar's suspect was of Jewish appearance.

Anderson's/Swanson's suspect was not recognisably Jewish.


Sagar's 'well-known' suspect was watched so 'carefully' after the Mitre Square murder that he was allowed to murder Mary Kelly.

Swanson's suspect was not even watched until after Mary Kelly's murder.

In both cases, identification was impossible because the 'suspect' had nothing to do with the murders and, in Sagar's case, did not even exist.

[Paddy]

Daily news Thurs Oct 18 1888

I found this part of the article interesting.
Could the woman that the man had previously lived with, be Woolfes wife Betsy? Maybe she did not want him to know who had reported him?
It also states that a few people mentioned the same man in Berner street area.
Although not proven, Kosminski could fit with this....It says he was placed under surveillance by the police .
However I must say it probably also fits other people too.

[Paddy]

I think the police became involved with Kosminski when a Mrs Kuer reported blood on some laundry at 22 Batty street. (Found by Rob House)
Kosminski was said to have lived in Germany for a few years before coming to England. So could probably speak German.
I found a German Mrs Kuhn lived at 22 Batty street in 1884 but Her daughter Caroline was born at 92 Sussex street, Poplar on 11th September 1888. They had also gone back to Frankfurt Germany in 1886 where her son was born.
Shame thought I found her.....

Pat.......

[Batman]

https://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=459115#post459115

I decided to go ahead and link up to the Chapman section for this stuff. New answer there for you.

[Paddy]

Do you have anything in the professional literature that says eviscerators can't de-escalate into other forms of crime including murder?

I wouldn't have thought that someone with Jack the ripper's motivation could change that driving force. An MO can change but I would think not the motivation. Chapman appears to have killed to get partners out of the way. Jack killed as he got a thrill from evisceration, two totally different motives and different victims.

Pat.............

[MrBarnett]

Yes, and my favourite resident in the area is Maria Louisa Lechmere, née Roulson, living at 1 Mary Ann Street at the time of the Stride murder. She actually had a son, who ... Oh, it´s a Kosminski thread!

Mine too.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=27926&highlight=Roulson

[Paddy]

What's your view on Freemasons back then? I am under the impression it was nothing more groups of men, many who knew each other since school days, having a ceremony in which they congratulate themselves and then proceed to get as roaring drunk as possible away from rabble which they don't want witnessing their piss-up parties.

Groups of Local business men that had to be voted in and were part of the establishment and raised funds. Piss ups were the norm for everyone back then. The poor, in their corner pubs, the business men in their lodges and the upper classes in their clubs or social groups. Definitely agree with the congratulating themselves bit...
Pat...

[Batman]

Probably nothing to do with anything but I shall throw it in here just in case. Isaac Abrahams, Aaron's brother quit the Freemasons in March 1889

Pat....

What's your view on Freemasons back then? I am under the impression it was nothing more groups of men, many who knew each other since school days, having a ceremony in which they congratulate themselves and then proceed to get as roaring drunk as possible away from rabble which they don't want witnessing their piss-up parties.

[Paddy]

Probably nothing to do with anything but I shall throw it in here just in case. Isaac Abrahams, Aaron's brother quit the Freemasons in March 1889

Pat....

[Fisherman]

It's up to yourself. Maybe another time. I'd be willing to read a modern forensic psychology paper supporting your position. That would be a good place to start.

As for the thread, halfway back a ripper mag reference puts Kozminski near Berner st and moving out shortly after the double event.

Yes, and my favourite resident in the area is Maria Louisa Lechmere, née Roulson, living at 1 Mary Ann Street at the time of the Stride murder. She actually had a son, who ... Oh, it´s a Kosminski thread!

[Batman]

It's up to yourself. Maybe another time. I'd be willing to read a modern forensic psychology paper supporting your position. That would be a good place to start.

As for the thread, halfway back a ripper mag reference puts Kozminski near Berner st and moving out shortly after the double event.

[Fisherman]

If you move to the thread SUSPECTS: Klosowski, Severin: Probably not him, but ...

... I will give my answers there. If I have anything to add. I think I have been crystal clear so far.

[Batman]

Do you have anything in the professional literature that says eviscerators can't de-escalate into other forms of crime including murder?

What is the barrier? You are saying the person really wants to eviscerate (yeah, of course) and what? That's the barrier?

To speculate that such a man with that kind of drive would cool off and forget about his physical urges, instead opting for poisoning fiancées and waiting patiently for them to succumb and die is simply not credible in any sense of the word.

Who says he forgot about any urges? Did BTK just forget his urges? No. They can wait for long periods of time and commit other types of crimes including homicide.

There is no incredible barrier. There is no big leap. There is simply the false notion that someone who cuts open women can't poison them also or won't poison them because he has other urges?

Do you think Chapman planned on getting caught? Of course not. If it wasn't for the gallows he could go on to committing whatever crime he fancied after that and didn't have to stick to poisoning... which plenty of poisoners have done, going on to commit other crimes.

Why do you think prisons are being checked for potential serial killers? Do you know there are DNA projects to gather DEAD INMATE DNA to help solve cold cases?

How about JtR had a fear of poison and thought women were trying to poison him. Then he turned the tables on them. There are loads of angles.

H.H.Holmes not only poisoned and gassed people, he butchered them also.

[Fisherman]

I am not going to give special treatment to eviscerators when it comes to MO changes. There is no barrier to them committing other crimes. In fact, this is why we search current prisoners to see if the SKs could be incarcerated for a completely different crime or even a similar crime that was never linked. They are human beings committing crimes. The idea the JtR murderer couldn't find the balls to open a bottle of poison and kill someone is a farce. Just think about it for two seconds. It's a misunderstanding that Serial Killers can't commit other crimes. In fact, these are the very people who would have no trouble to open up a bottle of poison and kill someone. Hence why they are candidates. All this stuff about Chapman can't change his MO is late 80s, early 90s nonsense that has well been undermined by 30-40 years of forensic psychology.

Bet you we can find poisoners who murdered people by other means also, no problem.

The special treatment for eviscerators is something I don't think is even present in the professional literature on the matter, namely peer-reviewed forensic psychology papers.

That is an interesting approach: "I am not going to give special treatment to eviscerators when it comes to MO changes". And then YOU tell ME to "think about things for two seconds...?

Do you think that eviscerations are things that come about as a bi-product of shoplifting? That they are commonplace matters that can pop up within anyone of us?

The fewest crimes offer a more definitive stamp on themselves than evisceration murders. They are acts brought about by urges that are rarer than hens´ teeth. Until we understand that, we may be wise not to propagate for eviscerators morphing into poisoners.

Once again, I am not saying that Chapman (or anybody else) could not change his MO. Don´t pin that on me! He obviously could do so - but it is the magnitude of the metamorphosis you suggest that is beyond belief.

Nor should you pin the idea that the Ripper "could not find the balls to open a bottle of poison and kill somebody with it" on me. The Ripper did not lack "balls" - on the contrary. He had "balls" enough to attack and kill women in the open London streets and eviscerate them there. That speaks tons about his motivation - he was willing to risk his neck in order to be able to cut women open and eviscerate them. That is how strong his urge was to get his hands on their bodies to rip them open and to cut their organs out. It was a case of here and now, no interruptions, no waiting, no hesitation - down you go and out your organs come!

To speculate that such a man with that kind of drive would cool off and forget about his physical urges, instead opting for poisoning fiancées and waiting patiently for them to succumb and die is simply not credible in any sense of the word.

On another note, I take it you are a firm believer that the Ripper and the torso killer were one and the same? Given what you allow for in MO changes, and how you cannot imagine two serialists in the same city, I mean? Any confirmation of that?

[Sam Flynn]

Just remembered this was a Kosminski thread. Sorry.

Batman - if you want to talk Klosowski, please consider moving the discussion to a Klosowski thread. I'm not going to post any more Klosowski stuff here, and I recommend others follow suit.

Edit: Ditto the Torso murders, or general discussions like SKs changing their MO, for that matter. There are threads for those things, too.