Rating The Suspects.

[Abby Normal]

I wouldn't go quite that far Abby. Although I've always thought Bellsmith would be a better suspect for some of the Torso Murders than for the C5. However I doubt he was either Jack or involved in any of the Torso murders. Cheers John

youre right. maybrick, van gogh and royal conspiracy suspects are even more ridiculous lol.

[John Wheat]

thanks herlock and john

on my list they would all get zeros lol. these are ridiculous suspects along the lines of may brick, van gogh and royal conspiracy.

I wouldn't go quite that far Abby. Although I've always thought Bellsmith would be a better suspect for some of the Torso Murders than for the C5. However I doubt he was either Jack or involved in any of the Torso murders. Cheers John

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

Buchan - a Marine stores dealer who committed suicide by almost cutting his own head off with a knife on the day of Mary Kelly’s funeral. First named in Criminologist magazine in 1990 by Roger Barber who recently wrote a book. Zero to connect him to the case Abby. I only added him because of the book.

Dr. Williams - a descendant found a letter to another doctor in which Williams apologises for not being able to meet as he would be attending a clinic in Whitechapel. The letter was dated Sept 8th 1888. He claims that Kelly might have become his lover in Wales and that the murders might have occurred because Williams wife couldn’t have children. Dr. Williams had a breakdown after the Kelly murder. He was 48 at the time of the murders and died in 1926.

Craig - a Reporter who got in trouble for plagiarising. A modern day author claims that Craig discovered that his wife was a prostitute who went into hiding under the name of Mary Kelly. The author Dr. Weston-Davies wanted to exhume Kelly’s body bt if I recall correctly he’s now given up on the suspect?

Wentworth Bell-Smith - was favoured by L. Forbes Winslow. Hasn’t been tracked down but he seems to have been the right type. Intriguing but lacking in corroboration.

thanks herlock and john

on my list they would all get zeros lol. these are ridiculous suspects along the lines of may brick, van gogh and royal conspiracy.

[Herlock Sholmes]

could anyone give me a nutshell on who the following suspects are and what they got going for them? it would be much appreciated.

buchan
dr john williams
craig
wentworth bell smith

Hi Abby,

Buchan - a Marine stores dealer who committed suicide by almost cutting his own head off with a knife on the day of Mary Kelly’s funeral. First named in Criminologist magazine in 1990 by Roger Barber who recently wrote a book. Zero to connect him to the case Abby. I only added him because of the book.

Dr. Williams - a descendant found a letter to another doctor in which Williams apologises for not being able to meet as he would be attending a clinic in Whitechapel. The letter was dated Sept 8th 1888. He claims that Kelly might have become his lover in Wales and that the murders might have occurred because Williams wife couldn’t have children. Dr. Williams had a breakdown after the Kelly murder. He was 48 at the time of the murders and died in 1926.

Craig - a Reporter who got in trouble for plagiarising. A modern day author claims that Craig discovered that his wife was a prostitute who went into hiding under the name of Mary Kelly. The author Dr. Weston-Davies wanted to exhume Kelly’s body bt if I recall correctly he’s now given up on the suspect?

Wentworth Bell-Smith - was favoured by L. Forbes Winslow. Hasn’t been tracked down but he seems to have been the right type. Intriguing but lacking in corroboration.

[Jon Guy]

But when he was disturbed, he had already attacked her lower body without first strangling or cutting the throat. With the Ripper, the strangling and throat cutting came first.

He was actually attacking her when the coppers appeared. It was her scream that drew attention.

I agree that this wasn`t Ripper like, cos he wasn`t the Ripper, but certainly the closest individual to the Ripper on the suspect list.

[The Rookie Detective]

But when he was disturbed, he had already attacked her lower body without first strangling or cutting the throat. With the Ripper, the strangling and throat cutting came first.

On your other post that I didn't quote, that's a valid point.

With Nichols, there's some suggestion that the sequence was the opposite way around; her throat cuts being inflicted last.

If that's the case, then perhaps the killer of Nichols chose to modify and essentially reverse his attack sequence with Chapman...and the rest is history so to speak...

[John Wheat]

could anyone give me a nutshell on who the following suspects are and what they got going for them? it would be much appreciated.

buchan
dr john williams
craig
wentworth bell smith

Hi Abby

I don't know much about the others but Wentworth Bellsmith was the other suspect who may have been the Lodger other than Tumblety. He reportedly owned a gun. He walked with a strange knock kneed gait. He reportedly was religious and had a hatred of prostitutes. Not much else is known about Wentworth Bellsmith.

Cheers John

[GBinOz]

Hi Herlock,

I am having some difficulty in reconciling the difference in scores between Bury and Deeming in category E. Bury attracted the attention of the police who apparently did not proceed to identify him as being involved in the Whitechapel murders. He rates a 2. Deeming attracted the attention of the police and his death mask was placed in the Scotland Yard museum as the "Face of Jack the Ripper". He rates a zero?

For your consideration.

Cheers, George

[Abby Normal]

could anyone give me a nutshell on who the following suspects are and what they got going for them? it would be much appreciated.

buchan
dr john williams
craig
wentworth bell smith

[Abby Normal]

Ammendment #12


--- (A) (B) (C) (D) (E) (F) (G) (H) ---

13 = 2 - 2 - 3 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Kelly, James

11 = 2 - 2 - 3 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Bury, William Henry

10 = 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 : Grainger, William Grant

09 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Cutbush, Thomas Hayne

09 = 2 - 1 - 4 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 : Deeming, Frederick Bailey

09 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 : Hyams, Hyam

09 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Puckridge, Oswald

08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Kosminski, Aaron (Aron Mordke Kozminski)

08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Pizer, John "Leather Apron"

08 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Lechmere, George Capel Scudamore

08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 : Barnado, Thomas John

O8 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 1 : Thompson, Francis

07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Chapman, George (Seweryn Antonowicz Kłosowski)

07 = 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 : Tumblety, Francis

07 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 : Smith, G. Wentworth Bell

07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Cohen, David

07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Kidney, Michael

06 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 : Thompson, Francis

06 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Levy, Jacob

05 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Druitt, Montague John

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Barnett, Joseph

05 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 : Stephenson, Robert Donston (or Roslyn D'Onston)

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Sutton, Henry Gawen

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1- 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Buchan, Edward

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Williams, Dr. John

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Craig, Francis Spurzheim

04 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Stephen, James Kenneth

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Bachert, Albert

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Cross, Charles (Charles Allen Lechmere)

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Hardiman, James

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Hutchinson, George

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Mann, Robert

04 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 : Maybrick, James

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Le Grand, Charles

03 = 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Sickert, Walter Richard

02 = 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Gull, Sir William Withey


Legend:

(A) Age/physical health

. . . 2 = no issue

. . . 1 = issues possibly creating doubt

. . . 0 = serious issue/ could potentially eliminate

(B) Location/access to murder sites

. . . 2 = no issues

. . . 1 = reasonable travel

. . . 0 = serious doubt

(C) Violence

. . . 4 = killed woman (non-relative) with knife

. . . 3 = killed female relative with knife

. . . 2 = violence with a knife

. . . 1 = violence without a knife

. . . 0 = no known violence

(D) Mental health issues

. . . 2 = serious/violent

. . . 1 = other

. . . 0 = none known

(E) Police interest

. . . 2 = at the time

. . . 1 = later (within 10 yrs)

. . . 0 = none known

(F) Hatred/dislike of women/prostitutes

. . . 2 = yes

. . . 1 = link to prostitutes

. . . 0 = none known

(G) Medical/anatomical knowledge (inc. animals)

. . . 1 = yes

. . . 0 = none known

(H) Alcohol/drug issue

. . . 1 = yes

. . . 0 = none known



Suspects Added


Oswald Puckridge*

Francis Thompson

Edward Buchan

Dr. John Williams

Francis Spurzheim Craig


*Puckridge was once charged with being drunk and disorderly but I can’t count that as having an ‘issue’ with drink. It could have been a one off.

I was also looking to add Hendrik De Jong to the list but I won’t add a suspect unless we can state with certainty that they were in the country at the time of the murders and I’m unsure at the moment with him. This is why Carl Feigenbaum and HH Holmes aren’t on the list by the way.

yes definitely good call adding puckridge def belongs on the list. and being arrested and charged with drunk and disorderly i would say having an issue with drink would be obvious. the chance of it being a one off is close to nil.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ammendment #12


--- (A) (B) (C) (D) (E) (F) (G) (H) ---

13 = 2 - 2 - 3 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Kelly, James

11 = 2 - 2 - 3 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Bury, William Henry

10 = 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 : Grainger, William Grant

09 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Cutbush, Thomas Hayne

09 = 2 - 1 - 4 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 : Deeming, Frederick Bailey

09 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 : Hyams, Hyam

09 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Puckridge, Oswald

08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Kosminski, Aaron (Aron Mordke Kozminski)

08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Pizer, John "Leather Apron"

08 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Lechmere, George Capel Scudamore

08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 : Barnado, Thomas John

O8 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 1 : Thompson, Francis

07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Chapman, George (Seweryn Antonowicz Kłosowski)

07 = 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 : Tumblety, Francis

07 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 : Smith, G. Wentworth Bell

07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Cohen, David

07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Kidney, Michael

06 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 : Thompson, Francis

06 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Levy, Jacob

05 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Druitt, Montague John

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Barnett, Joseph

05 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 : Stephenson, Robert Donston (or Roslyn D'Onston)

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Sutton, Henry Gawen

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1- 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Buchan, Edward

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Williams, Dr. John

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Craig, Francis Spurzheim

04 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Stephen, James Kenneth

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Bachert, Albert

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Cross, Charles (Charles Allen Lechmere)

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Hardiman, James

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Hutchinson, George

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Mann, Robert

04 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 : Maybrick, James

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Le Grand, Charles

03 = 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Sickert, Walter Richard

02 = 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Gull, Sir William Withey


Legend:

(A) Age/physical health

. . . 2 = no issue

. . . 1 = issues possibly creating doubt

. . . 0 = serious issue/ could potentially eliminate

(B) Location/access to murder sites

. . . 2 = no issues

. . . 1 = reasonable travel

. . . 0 = serious doubt

(C) Violence

. . . 4 = killed woman (non-relative) with knife

. . . 3 = killed female relative with knife

. . . 2 = violence with a knife

. . . 1 = violence without a knife

. . . 0 = no known violence

(D) Mental health issues

. . . 2 = serious/violent

. . . 1 = other

. . . 0 = none known

(E) Police interest

. . . 2 = at the time

. . . 1 = later (within 10 yrs)

. . . 0 = none known

(F) Hatred/dislike of women/prostitutes

. . . 2 = yes

. . . 1 = link to prostitutes

. . . 0 = none known

(G) Medical/anatomical knowledge (inc. animals)

. . . 1 = yes

. . . 0 = none known

(H) Alcohol/drug issue

. . . 1 = yes

. . . 0 = none known



Suspects Added


Oswald Puckridge*

Francis Thompson

Edward Buchan

Dr. John Williams

Francis Spurzheim Craig


*Puckridge was once charged with being drunk and disorderly but I can’t count that as having an ‘issue’ with drink. It could have been a one off.

I was also looking to add Hendrik De Jong to the list but I won’t add a suspect unless we can state with certainty that they were in the country at the time of the murders and I’m unsure at the moment with him. This is why Carl Feigenbaum and HH Holmes aren’t on the list by the way.

[Lewis C]

But Grant was disturbed by two coppers during the attack so we don`t know what he might have done.

But when he was disturbed, he had already attacked her lower body without first strangling or cutting the throat. With the Ripper, the strangling and throat cutting came first.

On your other post that I didn't quote, that's a valid point.

[Lewis C]

Hi Lewis C,

No proof that it was the same person other than someone named Grant (admittedly a common name) was later suspected.

Removing one's self from the scene of a crime (as did Bury) does not seem to me to be a disqualifying strategy.

The difference in technique is also used to question the McKenzie murder as being by the ripper. The ripper was successful in taking his victims by surprise, but there could be some latitude if the circumstances were different, such as being set upon by three ruffians at the same time. Not dis-similar to Don Bradman being dismissed for a duck in his last game to deprive him of a 100 average. The anticipation exceeds the participation.

I fully appreciate your reservations. There seems to be far less research into persons such as Grainger, Deeming and Thompson than the more traditional suspects such as Kosminski, Chapman and Druitt.

Cheers, George

Maybe I should clarify that I'm not saying that we should disqualify Grainger as a suspect if we know that he was in Ireland shortly after the murders. I think he's a viable suspect, even though I think that there are better ones. I just meant that if he was known to have been in Ireland shortly before Tabram's murder and shortly after Kelly's murder, and if we have no evidence of him leaving or returning to Ireland or being in England at the time of the murders, it would seem that most likely he was in Ireland the whole time. But yes, he certainly could have been in Whitechapel.

[Lewis C]

hi lewis
the cohen connection is too convoluted for me and as far as we know he wasnt andersons suspect, koz was.

re connection..well its known connection along with other yellow flags. for example burys connection is he was a police suspect, but we also know he was in the immediate area and a known murderer.

imho if you cant even place a candidate in the city and or they have zero connection to the case, a suspect you dont have. its just me, i just place a high emphasis on location/ proximity/ connection.

of course just having a connection dosnt make you suspicious. for example, innocuous witness like pc smith, or marshall or cox or diemshitz dosnt make you a suspect.

now the reverse of that, if mere connection to the case with no other yellow flags dosnt make you a suspect, then just having a violent/insane past but with no connection with the case dosnt make you a suspect either.

its like a parlor room game...hey lets find some random violent crazy guy with no connection to the case, to a victim, to the location and fit em on up. it just kind of silly to me. but again thats just me.

In some cases, it's not firmly established who was a police suspect and who wasn't, there have been some great researchers who either think Aaron Kosminsky isn't who Anderson, Swanson, and Macnaughten had in mind, or that he might not have been. I would say that the only people that can be said to undoubtedly be police suspects are Druitt, Ostrog, Chapman, and Tumblety, and of course we can eliminate Ostrog as a viable suspect anyway.

I agree that nearness to the area is an important consideration, and also whether that nearness is certain, probable, likely or merely possible matters.

[Jon Guy]

My other issue with him is that his attack on a prostitute was much less skillful than what JtR did, and I wonder if he really would have lost that ability in the few years that passed between the murders and his attack.

But Grant was disturbed by two coppers during the attack so we don`t know what he might have done.