Rating The Suspects.

[Herlock Sholmes]

But we can Feigenbaum was in London on the date Frances Coles was killed !!!!!!!!!!!

Obviously it’s not proof that he was in London just because he worked for a shipping company that had ships in London at the time but you say that you can prove that he was in London in 1891. You say in your book that you had seen a list: “which showed a Carl Feigenbaum was still employed by this merchant line, and he was in London on one of their ships in 1891” Why didn’t you show the list proving that he was in London in 1891?

And may I remind you that he confessed to his lawyer that he was in London on other dates of some of the other murders

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

CJ Morley’s book is full of people that confessed to being the ripper Trevor.

[Trevor Marriott]

This still leaves the uncomfortable position of having a man who we cannot place with evidence in London at the time though Trevor. What would prevent us finding a French murder of the time and saying “well, it would have been no problem for him to have crossed the channel.”

But we can Feigenbaum was in London on the date Frances Coles was killed !!!!!!!!!!!

And may I remind you that he confessed to his lawyer that he was in London on other dates of some of the other murders

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Lewis C]

Deeming would score a 1, because it's often argued he was abroad, but this can't be conclusively proven.

I think it has been proven that he was in England at the time. The issue is that he can't be proven to have been in the London area at the time. In that respect, he's similar to Druitt, who also was in England but not necessarily in London. A difference is that there's more information about Druitt's whereabouts than those of Deeming.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

I can only say that I haven't previously been aware of the offenses that you cite except for his stabbing two women in the buttocks. From this dissertation by Cristopher Morley:

https://www.casebook.org/ripper_media/book_reviews/non-fiction/cjmorley/44.html

"He soon escaped, and was at liberty for four days, taking with him a knife which he used to stab Florence Grace Johnson in the buttocks, and also attempted to do the same to Isabella Frazer Anderson, in Kennington. These crimes appeared to be imitations of a criminal called Colicott, who a couple of months previous had stabbed six young women in the behind with a pointed awl"

Cheers, George

Those are the same women George. Morley has mistakenly said that they were in the buttocks but the doctor who actually examined the women said that they were in the lower back. I’m going to have a bit of a read up on Colicott because it appears there there was some confusion, after the events, between the two.

[Herlock Sholmes]

This still leaves the uncomfortable position of having a man who we cannot place with evidence in London at the time though Trevor. What would prevent us finding a French murder of the time and saying “well, it would have been no problem for him to have crossed the channel.”

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think you need to read my original post on this issue and not be in a hurry to dismiss the contents

The reference you so hurriedly referred to was in relation to the Wisconsin murders !!!!!!!!!!!!

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Sorry Trevor. You’re right. I read it too quickly.

[Trevor Marriott]

So Feigenbaum was given two dates by Lawton and when he asked Feigenbaum about those dates his memory was good enough to recall where he was on those specific dates but…when Lawton himself had checked Feigenbaum’s record he had found that he was in Wisconsin at the time of the murders.

So we’ve gone from not being able to show that Feigenbaum was in England at the time to have someone who was there telling us that the record said that he wasn’t.

I think you need to read my original post on this issue and not be in a hurry to dismiss the contents

The reference you so hurriedly referred to was in relation to the Wisconsin murders !!!!!!!!!!!!

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

Re Feigenbaum
Here is a quote from William Lawton the lawyer who represented him throughout his incarceration for the murder he committed in The USA

So what did Lawton reveal? He stated, “One night I stayed talking with him for over two hours and during this time, he told me, “I have for years suffered from a singular disease which induces an all absorbing passion, this passion manifests itself in a desire to kill and mutilate every woman who falls in my way. At such times I am unable to control myself” Lawton went on to say, “I began to search Feigenbaum’s record. I learned that he was in Wisconsin at the time the country was startled by the news of the murder and mutilation of several women there, when I saw him again I mentioned the Whitechapel murders to which he replied, “The lord was responsible for my acts, and that to him only could I confess.” I was so startled that for the moment I did not know what to do I then looked up the dates of the Whitechapel murders and selected two. When I saw Feigenbaum again and was talking with him I said: "Carl, were you in London from this date to that one," naming those selected. "Yes", he answered.

Assistant District Attorney Vernon M. Davis, who prosecuted Feigenbaum, said: “If it were proved that Feigenbaum was 'Jack the Ripper' it would not greatly surprise me, because I always considered him a cunning fellow, surrounded by a great deal of mystery, and his life history was never found out.

The results of my in-depth investigation into Feigenbaum can be found in my book -"Jack The Ripper-The Real Truth" https://bit.ly/4h1IlnW

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

So Feigenbaum was given two dates by Lawton and when he asked Feigenbaum about those dates his memory was good enough to recall where he was on those specific dates but…when Lawton himself had checked Feigenbaum’s record he had found that he was in Wisconsin at the time of the murders.

So we’ve gone from not being able to show that Feigenbaum was in England at the time to have someone who was there telling us that the record said that he wasn’t.

[GBinOz]

I don't believe there should be a "0" for Access to murder sites, because it would need to encompass ALL of the murders, and there's no evidence to suggest that all of the victims were murdered by the same hand.

Astute observation RD. Of the 15 Whitechapel murders, Jack is being attributed with 5 +/_ 1 or 2. So the majority are postulated as being committed by one or more other perps.

Cheers, George

[Trevor Marriott]

That’s one of the things that I’d considered a while ago, and not just with the 2 that you’ve named. Puckeridge’s landlord said that he’d slept there every night for the last 4 weeks but..isn’t it at least possible that Puckeridge might have gone out without him seeing? I did wonder if it might be an idea to add an asterix and then note such potential issues. To be honest, and I know this will probably annoy Trevor, I’m still not happy having Feigenbaum in the list because we have no reason to believe that he was in the country at the time. If I kept him in I would have to add an asterix point too.

Re Feigenbaum
Here is a quote from William Lawton the lawyer who represented him throughout his incarceration for the murder he committed in The USA

So what did Lawton reveal? He stated, “One night I stayed talking with him for over two hours and during this time, he told me, “I have for years suffered from a singular disease which induces an all absorbing passion, this passion manifests itself in a desire to kill and mutilate every woman who falls in my way. At such times I am unable to control myself” Lawton went on to say, “I began to search Feigenbaum’s record. I learned that he was in Wisconsin at the time the country was startled by the news of the murder and mutilation of several women there, when I saw him again I mentioned the Whitechapel murders to which he replied, “The lord was responsible for my acts, and that to him only could I confess.” I was so startled that for the moment I did not know what to do I then looked up the dates of the Whitechapel murders and selected two. When I saw Feigenbaum again and was talking with him I said: "Carl, were you in London from this date to that one," naming those selected. "Yes", he answered.

Assistant District Attorney Vernon M. Davis, who prosecuted Feigenbaum, said: “If it were proved that Feigenbaum was 'Jack the Ripper' it would not greatly surprise me, because I always considered him a cunning fellow, surrounded by a great deal of mystery, and his life history was never found out.

The results of my in-depth investigation into Feigenbaum can be found in my book -"Jack The Ripper-The Real Truth" https://bit.ly/4h1IlnW

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[The Rookie Detective]

Cutbush would score a 3

Even though he claimed to have no knowledge of Whitechapel, and he lived in South London and stabbed women all in the same location (on the same road) he still purchased a 6 inch "toy" (which it wasn't) knife from a shop in the Minories, ergo, the heart of Whitechapel.

He lied about not having knowledge of Whitechapel


But the fact he was proven to have visited the Minories thus proves he had a known proximal geographical connection to Whitechapel.

[The Rookie Detective]

Version 19

(A) Age/physical health > 2 = no issue/1 = issues creating doubt.
(B) Access to murder sites > 2 = no issues/ 1 = within reasonable travel (train for e.g./ 0 = presence unproven/doubt
(C) Violence > 4 = murder of a woman with a knife/ 3 = murder of a woman (including the use of a knife) or murder with another weapon/ 2 = wounding a woman with a knife/ 1 = threatening a woman with a knife or physical violence using a weapon/ 0 = no violence (with knife or otherwise) 2 = violence with a knife/1 = violence without a knife/0 = no known violence.
(D) Mental health issues > 2 = serious/violent/sexual/1 = other/0 = none known.
(E) Police interest > 2 = at the time (without proven alibi)/1 = later (within 10 yrs and without exoneration)/0 = none known, not serious or exonerated.
(F) Hatred/dislike of women/prostitutes > 2 = yes/1 = link to prostitutes/0 = none known.
(G) Medical/anatomical knowledge (inc. animals) > 1 = yes/0 = none known


--- (A) (B) (C) (D) (E) (F) (G) ---

13 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 1 : Cutbush, Thomas Hayne

12 = 2 - 2 - 3 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 : Kelly, James

10 = 2 - 2 - 3 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 : Bury, William Henry

10 = 2 - 0 - 4 - 1 - 1 - 2 - 0 : Deeming, Frederick Bailey

09 = 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 : Grainger, William Grant

09 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 1 : Puckridge, Oswald

08 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Hyams, Hyam

08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Kosminski, Aaron (Aron Mordke Kozminski)

08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 : Barnado, Thomas John

08 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Pizer, John (Leather Apron)

08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Cohen, David

07 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Lechmere, George Capel Scudamore

07 = 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 2 - 1 : Tumblety, Francis

07 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 0 : Smith, G. Wentworth Bell

06 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Kidney, Michael

06 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 : Thompson, Francis

06 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 : Chapman, George (Severin Antonowicz Kłosowski)

06 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 : Levy, Jacob

06 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Druitt, Montague John

06 = 2 - 0 - 4 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Carl Feigenbaum

06 = 2 - 0 - 3 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Hendrik De Jong

06 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Le Grand, Charles

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Barnett, Joseph

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 : Sutton, Henry Gawen

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Buchan, Edward

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 : Williams, Dr. John

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Craig, Francis Spurzheim

04 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 : Stephenson, Robert Donston (or Roslyn D'Onston)

04 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Maybrick, James

04 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Stephen, James Kenneth

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Bachert, Albert

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Cross, Charles (Charles Allen Lechmere)

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Hardiman, James

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Hutchinson, George

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Mann, Robert

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Maybrick, Michael

04 = 1 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 : Gull, Sir William Withey

03 = 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Sickert, Walter Richard



Changes Made


I have removed the drug/alcohol criteria as I feel that it isn’t of value and might be misleading. There are a large number of serial killers that don’t have these issues. I’d point out that by removing this category only 2 suspects have changed position in the list - GCS Lechmere and RD Stephenson.




I also made some changes to Cutbush after re-reading Bullock’s book - the violence criteria changed a while ago and I hadn’t altered Cutbush accordingly - For (E) Cutbush certainly was suspected at the time, Inspector Race was convinced of his guilt - For (F) Hatred of prostitutes has to be a 2. Cutbush blamed a prostitute for giving him syphilis and, according to his aunt, he had brutally raped a prostitute at some point - He also gets a point for anatomical knowledge. He was obsessed by anatomy and medical issues in general, he had books on surgery and anatomy and obsessively drew anatomical drawings.

Could you have...


Access to murder sites....

3 - known proximity and access to murder sites

2 - possible proximity and access to murder sites

1 - known issues with proximity and access to murder sites


If you have a "0" it's essentially ruling them out as the killer already, because it implies they couldn't have been there. Which then negates the need for them to be on the list and considered in the first place.


So for example,

Bachert would score a 3 because he lived for decades in the same house and within proximity to the majority of murder sites.
Chapman also would score a 3 because he had a shop on Cable Street.

Thompson would score a 2 because he spent most of his time on the Embankment sleeping under arches, and so could have possible access to Whitechapel. But there's no evidence he was in Whitechapel


Deeming would score a 1, because it's often argued he was abroad, but this can't be conclusively proven.


Just a thought

[The Rookie Detective]

I don't believe there should be a "0" for Access to murder sites, because it would need to encompass ALL of the murders, and there's no evidence to suggest that all of the victims were murdered by the same hand.

Access to murder sites is the most difficult to get right, because the fact is that unless a suspect was already dead (like Bury was by the time of the McKenzie murder) then there's always a slight chance that ANY of the names suspects on your list had access to the murder sites.

I would instead INCREASE the scores for those individuals who were definitely able to have proximal access to the various murder sites.

Bachert, Levy, Chapman for example, were all known to live and work locally.

So as an example, the likes of Deeming, Thomspon, Faigenbum etc... would score a point less than the likes of Bachert, Levy, Chapman etc...


In other words, Access to murder sites should be the only category that doesn't have a "0" points system.


Things like known History of Violence, Criminal record etc... CAN have a "0" because we know that the likes of Lechmere had no known history of violence.


Hope that all makes sense


It does to me anyway, haha!!!

[GBinOz]

I can’t see why Cutbush garners so little interest George? What are the objections?

Hi Herlock,

I can only say that I haven't previously been aware of the offenses that you cite except for his stabbing two women in the buttocks. From this dissertation by Cristopher Morley:

https://www.casebook.org/ripper_media/book_reviews/non-fiction/cjmorley/44.html

"He soon escaped, and was at liberty for four days, taking with him a knife which he used to stab Florence Grace Johnson in the buttocks, and also attempted to do the same to Isabella Frazer Anderson, in Kennington. These crimes appeared to be imitations of a criminal called Colicott, who a couple of months previous had stabbed six young women in the behind with a pointed awl"

Cheers, George

[Lewis C]

double post