Rating The Suspects.

[DJA]

Gull had homes at Reigate and Brighton,in addition to 74 Brook Street.

[Fiver]

Found it.

I noticed a comment on another thread where it was assumed that Sir William Gull was living in London (the West End) at the time of the 1888 murders.

Although I can't find any other reference to it, this doesn't appear to have been the case.

According to the Surrey Mirror, sometime in early August 1888, at around the time of the Tabram murder, Gull moved to "Underhills" a country estate outside of the village of Bletchingley. This is roughly 22 miles south of the East End (34 kilometers) and according to the notice Gull intended to live there for two months, which of course would keep him there until early October 1888.

As far as I can tell, the village didn't (and doesn't) have a railway station, so someone traveling to London would first have to take a carriage to Redhill or Godstone.

[rjpalmer]

Yes, I was thinking that someone found a newspaper report showing that Gull was out of London on locum.

See posts #4 & #5. He had taken a house in Bletchingley in August 1888 and was living about 22 miles south of the East End. Even traveling to Central London by train would have taken some planning. Gull was never a serious suspect.

Sir William Gull - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums

[Jon Guy]

I'm pretty sure someone showed that Dr Gull was not living in London at the time.

Yes, I was thinking that someone found a newspaper report showing that Gull was out of London on locum.

[DJA]

Gull had his first stroke in 1887 while in Scotland.After a few weeks he returned to 74 Brook Street where he died in 1890.

He did attend a Royal Society meeting shortly after the Double Event.

[Fiver]

Was not Gull in the area at the time John?

Sure, dismiss him for other reasons that you might favour, but as far as my knowledge of Gull goes, he was in London at the time and could easily have traveled in and around Whitechapel.

I'm pretty sure someone showed that Dr Gull was not living in London at the time.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ammendment #14

--- (A) (B) (C) (D) (E) (F) (G) (H) ---

13 = 2 - 2 - 3 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Kelly, James

11 = 2 - 2 - 3 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Bury, William Henry

10 = 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 : Grainger, William Grant

09 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Cutbush, Thomas Hayne

09 = 2 - 1 - 4 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 : Deeming, Frederick Bailey

09 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 : Hyams, Hyam

09 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Puckridge, Oswald

08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Kosminski, Aaron (Aron Mordke Kozminski)

08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Pizer, John "Leather Apron"

08 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Lechmere, George Capel Scudamore

08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 : Barnado, Thomas John

O8 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 1 : Thompson, Francis

07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Chapman, George (Seweryn Antonowicz Kłosowski)

07 = 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 : Tumblety, Francis

07 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 : Smith, G. Wentworth Bell

07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Cohen, David

07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Kidney, Michael

06 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 : Thompson, Francis

06 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Levy, Jacob

06 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Pizer, John

05 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Druitt, Montague John

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Barnett, Joseph

05 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 : Stephenson, Robert Donston (or Roslyn D'Onston)

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Sutton, Henry Gawen

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1- 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Buchan, Edward

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Williams, Dr. John

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Craig, Francis Spurzheim

04 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Stephen, James Kenneth

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Bachert, Albert

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Cross, Charles (Charles Allen Lechmere)

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Hardiman, James

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Hutchinson, George

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Mann, Robert

04 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 : Maybrick, James

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Le Grand, Charles

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Maybrick, Michael

04 = 1 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Gull, Sir William Withey

03 = 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Sickert, Walter Richard




Legend:

(A) Age/physical health

. . . 2 = no issue

. . . 1 = issues creating doubt

(B) Location/access to murder sites

. . . 2 = no issues

. . . 1 = reasonable travel

. . . 0 = serious doubt

(C) Violence

. . . 4 = killed woman (non-relative) with knife

. . . 3 = killed female relative with knife

. . . 2 = violence with a knife

. . . 1 = violence without a knife

. . . 0 = no known violence

(D) Mental health issues

. . . 2 = serious/violent

. . . 1 = other

. . . 0 = none known

(E) Police interest

. . . 2 = at the time (without exoneration)

. . . 1 = later (within 10 yrs and without exoneration)

. . . 0 = none known or not serious

(F) Hatred/dislike of women/prostitutes

. . . 2 = yes

. . . 1 = link to prostitutes

. . . 0 = none known

(G) Medical/anatomical knowledge (inc. animals)

. . . 1 = yes

. . . 0 = none known

(H) Alcohol/drug issue

. . . 1 = yes

. . . 0 = none known


Changes


I’ve changed the (B) section for Gull from 1 to 2. I’ve also removed the 0 option on reflection because that would mean a categorical elimination due to health/age and any suspect scoring zero couldn’t be on the list in the first place.

[Abby Normal]

Abby, in a nutshell, Buchan committed suicide on his birthday, which was also the day of Mary Jane Kelly's funeral. For one thing, this would explain why the murders stopped, if Kelly really was the last Ripper murder. Barber also connects his suicide on his birthday with the Ripper attacking the wombs of his victims, because a birthday is the anniversary of the day a person exits the womb. Also, his father had a navel apparel store or something like that, and Lawende thought that the man he saw dressed like a sailor. If you want some more detail about Buchan, because maybe my summation doesn't do full justice to the theory, about 2 months ago, Richard Jones, on his Youtube channel, posted a video in which he interviewed the chief proponent of the Buchan theory, Roger Barber. I came away from the video with the belief that Buchan isn't one of the 15 best suspects, but also isn't a ridiculous suspect in the manner of Gull or Lewis Carroll. I think Richard Jones' videos about specific suspects are usually worth seeing, even if the suspect isn't the greatest. Here's a link to it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0MHE_v-QWs

thanks lewis

[FISHY1118]

Yes Gull was in the area at the time.

[John Wheat]

Was not Gull in the area at the time John?

Sure, dismiss him for other reasons that you might favour, but as far as my knowledge of Gull goes, he was in London at the time and could easily have traveled in and around Whitechapel.

Yes Gull was in the area at the time.

[FISHY1118]

I have to agree with you Abby Maybrick, Van Gogh and royal conspiracy suspects are fantasy suspects.
Atleast with Wentworth Bellsmith we have someone who was in the area at the time.

Was not Gull in the area at the time John?

Sure, dismiss him for other reasons that you might favour, but as far as my knowledge of Gull goes, he was in London at the time and could easily have traveled in and around Whitechapel.

[Lewis C]

could anyone give me a nutshell on who the following suspects are and what they got going for them? it would be much appreciated.

buchan
dr john williams
craig
wentworth bell smith

Abby, in a nutshell, Buchan committed suicide on his birthday, which was also the day of Mary Jane Kelly's funeral. For one thing, this would explain why the murders stopped, if Kelly really was the last Ripper murder. Barber also connects his suicide on his birthday with the Ripper attacking the wombs of his victims, because a birthday is the anniversary of the day a person exits the womb. Also, his father had a navel apparel store or something like that, and Lawende thought that the man he saw dressed like a sailor. If you want some more detail about Buchan, because maybe my summation doesn't do full justice to the theory, about 2 months ago, Richard Jones, on his Youtube channel, posted a video in which he interviewed the chief proponent of the Buchan theory, Roger Barber. I came away from the video with the belief that Buchan isn't one of the 15 best suspects, but also isn't a ridiculous suspect in the manner of Gull or Lewis Carroll. I think Richard Jones' videos about specific suspects are usually worth seeing, even if the suspect isn't the greatest. Here's a link to it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0MHE_v-QWs

[Abby Normal]

Ammendment #13


--- (A) (B) (C) (D) (E) (F) (G) (H) ---

13 = 2 - 2 - 3 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Kelly, James

11 = 2 - 2 - 3 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Bury, William Henry

10 = 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 : Grainger, William Grant

09 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Cutbush, Thomas Hayne

09 = 2 - 1 - 4 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 : Deeming, Frederick Bailey

09 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 : Hyams, Hyam

09 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Puckridge, Oswald

08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Kosminski, Aaron (Aron Mordke Kozminski)

08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Pizer, John "Leather Apron"

08 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Lechmere, George Capel Scudamore

08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 : Barnado, Thomas John

O8 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 1 : Thompson, Francis

07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Chapman, George (Seweryn Antonowicz Kłosowski)

07 = 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 : Tumblety, Francis

07 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 : Smith, G. Wentworth Bell

07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Cohen, David

07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Kidney, Michael

06 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 : Thompson, Francis

06 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Levy, Jacob

06 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Pizer, John

05 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Druitt, Montague John

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Barnett, Joseph

05 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 : Stephenson, Robert Donston (or Roslyn D'Onston)

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Sutton, Henry Gawen

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1- 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Buchan, Edward

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Williams, Dr. John

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Craig, Francis Spurzheim

04 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Stephen, James Kenneth

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Bachert, Albert

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Cross, Charles (Charles Allen Lechmere)

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Hardiman, James

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Hutchinson, George

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Mann, Robert

04 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 : Maybrick, James

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Le Grand, Charles

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Maybrick, Michael

03 = 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Sickert, Walter Richard

02 = 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Gull, Sir William Withey


Legend:

(A) Age/physical health

. . . 2 = no issue

. . . 1 = issues possibly creating doubt

. . . 0 = serious issue/ could potentially eliminate

(B) Location/access to murder sites

. . . 2 = no issues

. . . 1 = reasonable travel

. . . 0 = serious doubt

(C) Violence

. . . 4 = killed woman (non-relative) with knife

. . . 3 = killed female relative with knife

. . . 2 = violence with a knife

. . . 1 = violence without a knife

. . . 0 = no known violence

(D) Mental health issues

. . . 2 = serious/violent

. . . 1 = other

. . . 0 = none known

(E) Police interest

. . . 2 = at the time (without exoneration)

. . . 1 = later (within 10 yrs and without exoneration))

. . . 0 = none known or not serious

(F) Hatred/dislike of women/prostitutes

. . . 2 = yes

. . . 1 = link to prostitutes

. . . 0 = none known

(G) Medical/anatomical knowledge (inc. animals)

. . . 1 = yes

. . . 0 = none known

(H) Alcohol/drug issue

. . . 1 = yes

. . . 0 = none known


Suspects Added

Michael Maybrick and John Pizer*


* I scored him 2 on violence due to the knife attack on James Willis even though his name was given as Pozer. I scored him 0 on police interest because interest was only brief.


This is an example of a ‘suspect’ that would have scored fairly high if he didn’t have an alibi for the Double Event which imo eliminates any suspect. William Piggott, would have scored (2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 1 = 9) except that he was admitted to the Whitechapel Infirmary, 10th September 1888 (from Commercial Street Police Station) for Delirium Tremens and wasn’t discharged until 9th October which exonerates him of Stride and Eddowes.

….

Ive finished going through Morley’s suspect list and I can’t see any more worth adding (he lists 443 of them btw) but I will add if anyone makes a suggestion.

….

Thoughts requested - I’ve been thinking for a while that I should perhaps change the ‘violence’ criteria to cover only violence against women? I just think it might give a slightly more accurate representation although it will be a pain to go back through them. It was when I had to award Pizer 2 points that I thought that a change might be needed.

hi herlock
deeming should het a zero for number 2. there is serious doubt

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ammendment #13


--- (A) (B) (C) (D) (E) (F) (G) (H) ---

13 = 2 - 2 - 3 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Kelly, James

11 = 2 - 2 - 3 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Bury, William Henry

10 = 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 : Grainger, William Grant

09 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Cutbush, Thomas Hayne

09 = 2 - 1 - 4 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 : Deeming, Frederick Bailey

09 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 : Hyams, Hyam

09 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Puckridge, Oswald

08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Kosminski, Aaron (Aron Mordke Kozminski)

08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Pizer, John "Leather Apron"

08 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Lechmere, George Capel Scudamore

08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 : Barnado, Thomas John

O8 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 1 : Thompson, Francis

07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Chapman, George (Seweryn Antonowicz Kłosowski)

07 = 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 : Tumblety, Francis

07 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 : Smith, G. Wentworth Bell

07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Cohen, David

07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Kidney, Michael

06 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 : Thompson, Francis

06 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Levy, Jacob

06 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Pizer, John

05 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Druitt, Montague John

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Barnett, Joseph

05 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 : Stephenson, Robert Donston (or Roslyn D'Onston)

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Sutton, Henry Gawen

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1- 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Buchan, Edward

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Williams, Dr. John

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Craig, Francis Spurzheim

04 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Stephen, James Kenneth

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Bachert, Albert

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Cross, Charles (Charles Allen Lechmere)

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Hardiman, James

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Hutchinson, George

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Mann, Robert

04 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 : Maybrick, James

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Le Grand, Charles

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Maybrick, Michael

03 = 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Sickert, Walter Richard

02 = 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Gull, Sir William Withey


Legend:

(A) Age/physical health

. . . 2 = no issue

. . . 1 = issues possibly creating doubt

. . . 0 = serious issue/ could potentially eliminate

(B) Location/access to murder sites

. . . 2 = no issues

. . . 1 = reasonable travel

. . . 0 = serious doubt

(C) Violence

. . . 4 = killed woman (non-relative) with knife

. . . 3 = killed female relative with knife

. . . 2 = violence with a knife

. . . 1 = violence without a knife

. . . 0 = no known violence

(D) Mental health issues

. . . 2 = serious/violent

. . . 1 = other

. . . 0 = none known

(E) Police interest

. . . 2 = at the time (without exoneration)

. . . 1 = later (within 10 yrs and without exoneration))

. . . 0 = none known or not serious

(F) Hatred/dislike of women/prostitutes

. . . 2 = yes

. . . 1 = link to prostitutes

. . . 0 = none known

(G) Medical/anatomical knowledge (inc. animals)

. . . 1 = yes

. . . 0 = none known

(H) Alcohol/drug issue

. . . 1 = yes

. . . 0 = none known


Suspects Added

Michael Maybrick and John Pizer*


* I scored him 2 on violence due to the knife attack on James Willis even though his name was given as Pozer. I scored him 0 on police interest because interest was only brief.


This is an example of a ‘suspect’ that would have scored fairly high if he didn’t have an alibi for the Double Event which imo eliminates any suspect. William Piggott, would have scored (2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 1 = 9) except that he was admitted to the Whitechapel Infirmary, 10th September 1888 (from Commercial Street Police Station) for Delirium Tremens and wasn’t discharged until 9th October which exonerates him of Stride and Eddowes.

….

Ive finished going through Morley’s suspect list and I can’t see any more worth adding (he lists 443 of them btw) but I will add if anyone makes a suggestion.

….

Thoughts requested - I’ve been thinking for a while that I should perhaps change the ‘violence’ criteria to cover only violence against women? I just think it might give a slightly more accurate representation although it will be a pain to go back through them. It was when I had to award Pizer 2 points that I thought that a change might be needed.

[John Wheat]

youre right. maybrick, van gogh and royal conspiracy suspects are even more ridiculous lol.

I have to agree with you Abby Maybrick, Van Gogh and royal conspiracy suspects are fantasy suspects.
Atleast with Wentworth Bellsmith we have someone who was in the area at the time.