Rating The Suspects.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I agree with this. I'd say that Le Grande is the chart's most significant omission.

I’ll put Le Grand in on my next update Lewis which should be later today.

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi Herlock,

I have just been reading this thread:

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/persons-of-interest-or-actual-suspects/william-grant-grainger/20245-a-case-for-william-grant-grainger

In Post #3 Nemo, with regard to Grainger states:

He was a persistent drunk and at least once entered an asylum for treatment of what appears to be delirium tremens, reported as suffering from hallucinations and a delusional mental state

and

Patricia Cornwell owns a clippings book which appears to be a collection of articles and notes from some type of investigator of the Ripper crimes in 1888
In this book there is a note from around the time of the Annie Chapman murder which asks "Which regiment does Grant belong to?"

Might these comments warrant an upgrade to categories D and E?

I have also recently re-watched Robyn Napper's investigation into Deeming:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQxYiUUDZqk&t=10s&ab_channel=DarkHistory

Just before the 12 minute mark he discovers that Deeming's death mask was used as "the face of Jack the Ripper" in the Scotland Yard Crime Museum, possibly indicating an interest in him at the time. Might this warrant an upgrade in category E?

For your consideration.

Cheers, George

Yes, the fact that the police used Deeming's death mask and used it in the Scotland Yard Crime museum and labelled it as "the face of Jack the Ripper," is perhaps as close an indication we can get that Deeming was considered by some to have been the real Ripper.

Otherwise, why go through the process of using his death mask in the first place?

[GBinOz]

Hi Herlock,

I have just been reading this thread:

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/persons-of-interest-or-actual-suspects/william-grant-grainger/20245-a-case-for-william-grant-grainger

In Post #3 Nemo, with regard to Grainger states:

He was a persistent drunk and at least once entered an asylum for treatment of what appears to be delirium tremens, reported as suffering from hallucinations and a delusional mental state

and

Patricia Cornwell owns a clippings book which appears to be a collection of articles and notes from some type of investigator of the Ripper crimes in 1888
In this book there is a note from around the time of the Annie Chapman murder which asks "Which regiment does Grant belong to?"

Might these comments warrant an upgrade to categories D and E?

I have also recently re-watched Robyn Napper's investigation into Deeming:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQxYiUUDZqk&t=10s&ab_channel=DarkHistory

Just before the 12 minute mark he discovers that Deeming's death mask was used as "the face of Jack the Ripper" in the Scotland Yard Crime Museum, possibly indicating an interest in him at the time. Might this warrant an upgrade in category E?

For your consideration.

Cheers, George

[Blackchapel]

Herlock -
The spacing issue in your Suspects Table is because 1) the default font is variable width and 2) the editor appears to save multiple spaces as a single space. Adding a header introduces a problem because the letters aren't the same width as the numbers below, and the extra spaces get squeezed out. To get around these issues in the example below, I've used the forum editor to change the font to "Courier New" which is fixed-width. I only changed the left side to Courier because it can be hard to read. The right side with names remains in the default font. Also, I changed the entire left side to bold, again because Courier can be hard to read. Regarding the issues of copy/paste through the iPad (and probably most other systems), that's a function of how "control codes" are transferred from one device to another. Generally speaking, control codes are invisible in the displayed text. Their functions can include turning on/off bold, italic, and linefeed/carriage returns. Often they will not transfer to a different device's editor during cut/copy/paste.

I have a possible solution. When you wish to do a table update, open the forum message with the latest published version. Select and copy the table and legend (but no other text). Now jump to wherever you wish to add a message and "Post Reply". Immediately paste into the editor window. That way the copy/paste stays within the web browser rather than transferring to Pages and getting corrupted. Of course any other text you wish to add above or below the inserted table can come from any source including iPad Pages. I've tested this myself and it seems to copy correctly. You'll have to try it with your set-up to see if it works for you.

Here's my latest effort. I welcome your opinion and thoughts.


--- (A) (B) (C) (D) (E) (F) (G) (H) ---
13 = 2 - 2 - 3 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Kelly, James
11 = 2 - 2 - 3 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Bury, William Henry
09 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Cutbush, Thomas Hayne
09 = 2 - 1 - 4 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 : Deeming, Frederick Bailey
09 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 : Hyams, Hyam
09 = 2 - 1 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 : Grainger, William Grant
08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Kosminski, Aaron (Aron Mordke Kozminski)
08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Pizer, John "Leather Apron"
08 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Lechmere
08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 : Barnado, Thomas John
07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Chapman, George (Seweryn Antonowicz Kłosowski)
07 = 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 : Tumblety, Francis
07 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 : Smith, G. Wentworth Bell
07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Cohen, David
07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Kidney, Michael
06 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 : Thompson, Francis
06 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Levy, Jacob
05 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Druitt, Montague John
05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Barnett, Joseph
04 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Stephen, James Kenneth
05 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 : Stephenson, Robert Donston (or Roslyn D'Onston)
04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Bachert, Albert
04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Cross, Charles (Charles Allen Lechmere)
04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Hardiman, James
04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Hutchinson, George
04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Mann, Robert
04 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 : Maybrick, James
03 = 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Sickert, Walter Richard
02 = 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Gull, Sir William Withey

Legend:

(A) Age/physical health
. . . 2 = no issue
. . . 1 = some issues creating doubt
. . . 0 = serious issue/ could potentially eliminate

(B) Location/access to murder sites
. . . 2 = no issues
. . . 1 = reasonable travel/possible doubt
. . . 0 = serious doubt

(C) Violence
. . . 4 = killed woman (non-relative) with knife
. . . 3 = killed female relative with knife
. . . 2 = violence with a knife
. . . 1 = violence without a knife
. . . 0 = no known violence

(D) Mental health issues
. . . 2 = serious/violent
. . . 1 = other
. . . 0 = none known

(E) Police interest
. . . 2 = at the time
. . . 1 = later (within 10 yrs)
. . . 0 = none known

(F) Hatred/dislike of women/prostitutes
. . . 2 = yes
. . . 1 = link to prostitutes
. . . 0 = none

(G) Medical/anatomical knowledge (inc. animals)
. . . 1 = yes
. . . 0 = no

(H) Alcohol/drug issue
. . . 1 = yes
. . . 0 = none known

[FISHY1118]

my problem with candidates like hyams, the other lechmere, smith, cohen, stephen, (not even gonna mention gull, sickert or maybrick in this list as they are just ridiculous) is they have absolute zero connection to the case not even a tenuous one, werent suspected by the police at the time and cant be placed anywhere near any the victims or locations. they are concoctions and extensions of the crazy/violent guy/ jew theory picked out of the bag by later "theorists". seriously, you could literally find anyone out of thousands in london at the time and fit them up under this criteria as a "suspect".

I guess I'm having to disagree with your reasoning for totally disregarding the above Ripper suspects Abby.

Over the years I've fiercely debated the highly unlikely event that the likes of Druitt ,Maybrick ( and a few others) were not JtR . However who am I to say that they were 100 percent not !, as you seem to have suggested about Gull and Sickert.

If the day ever comes that either Druitt or Maybrick where shown to be without any shadow of a doubt the "Ripper", i would be the first to put my hand up and say I got it wrong.

As far as suspects goes i believe eliminating the likes of Gull and or Sickert is ridiculous. After all ,there is nothing that rules them out totally and completely, only that they remain unlikely in some people's opinion ,and I get that ( please don't ask me to debate their cases again as I'm done doing all that )

In the end nobody knows the true identity of JrR , there is no evidence that supports that any one suspect was the killer. Until such evidence becomes available, all the major players and or suspects should be considered . On what level or scale is totally and rightfully up to the person that supports them as Jack the Ripper. Imo.

[DJA]

You missed Henry Gawen Sutton.

[Lewis C]

i also think legrande should be on the list, he was certainly there at the time, involved in the case, was a shady character, and while not named by the police specifically he was suspected by, i beleive, a prison official.

I agree with this. I'd say that Le Grande is the chart's most significant omission.

[Abby Normal]

my problem with candidates like hyams, the other lechmere, smith, cohen, stephen, (not even gonna mention gull, sickert or maybrick in this list as they are just ridiculous) is they have absolute zero connection to the case not even a tenuous one, werent suspected by the police at the time and cant be placed anywhere near any the victims or locations. they are concoctions and extensions of the crazy/violent guy/ jew theory picked out of the bag by later "theorists". seriously, you could literally find anyone out of thousands in london at the time and fit them up under this criteria as a "suspect".

[Abby Normal]

i also think legrande should be on the list, he was certainly there at the time, involved in the case, was a shady character, and while not named by the police specifically he was suspected by, i beleive, a prison official.

[Abby Normal]

Well spotted Abby. It looks like Blackchapel has naturally assumed that the ‘Lechmere’ was Charles Allen Lechmere (Cross) but it wasn’t. It’s another Lechmere which Fiver put forward called GSC Lechmere. I’ll ask Fiver for the full name.

ah yes, the infamous other lechmere. i thought that had something to do with it. it would be interesting to know if they were related.

[Herlock Sholmes]

dumb question..
whats the difference between charles allen lechmere and charles cross?

Well spotted Abby. It looks like Blackchapel has naturally assumed that the ‘Lechmere’ was Charles Allen Lechmere (Cross) but it wasn’t. It’s another Lechmere which Fiver put forward called GSC Lechmere. I’ll ask Fiver for the full name.

[Abby Normal]

dumb question..
whats the difference between charles allen lechmere and charles cross?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Herlock -

The "Suspects" table you posted some months ago is excellent and useful! Respectfully, I would suggest the following modifications to make it easier to read:

Names last so that the columns line up and mistakes can be more easily spotted. For example, Hutchinson and Sickert are each missing a value.
Totals first and prepend "0" in front of single digits so that lines can be sorted by total easily.

13 = 2 - 2 - 3 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 | Kelly, James
11 = 2 - 2 - 3 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 | Bury, William Henry
09 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 | Cutbush, Thomas Hayne
09 = 2 - 1 - 4 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 | Deeming, Frederick Bailey
09 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 | Hyams, Hyam
09 = 2 - 1 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 | Grainger, William Grant
08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 | Kosminski, Aaron (Aron Mordke Kozminski)
08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 | Pizer, John "Leather Apron"
08 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 | Lechmere, Charles Allen
08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 | Barnado, Thomas John
07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 | Chapman, George (Seweryn Antonowicz Kłosowski)
07 = 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 | Tumblety, Francis
07 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 | Smith, G. Wentworth Bell
07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 | Cohen, David
07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 | Kidney, Michael
06 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 | Thompson, Francis
06 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 | Levy, Jacob
05 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 | Druitt, Montague John
05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 | Barnett, Joseph
04 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 | Stephen, James Kenneth
05 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 | Stephenson, Robert Donston (or Roslyn D'Onston)
04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 | Bachert, Albert
04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 | Cross, Charles
04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 | Hardiman, James
04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - ? | Hutchinson, George
04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 | Mann, Robert
04 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 | Maybrick, James
03 = 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - ? | Sickert, Walter Richard
02 = 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 | Gull, Sir William Withey

Much appreciate all your efforts!

Hi Blackchapel,

A bit of assistance is required. I’m fairly useless with tech (and I’m doing myself a favour by adding the ‘fairly.’) I just tried to make an improvement after a suggestion from Abby but as you can see, even though I put the letters running horizontally over the correct column they’ve now ‘bunched up.’

Any chance of you doing a table with the letters in the right place that I can copy and paste please? Also, 2 questions. I have an Ipad and use Pages. When I cut and paste the table that you created from Pages to the Forum the emboldened numbers revert to normal so I have to individually embolden them again. Any idea how I can stop that? And question two, when I cut and paste there’s a gap between each line so I have to move them back together after posting. It’s not a major issue but is there any way to avoid it?

Cheers

[Herlock Sholmes]

Good suggestion Abby. Here you go.


A = age/physical health - 2 = no issue, 1 = some issues creating doubt, 0 = serious issue/ could potentially eliminate.
B = location/access to murder sites - 2 = no issues, 1 = reasonable travel/possible doubt, 0 = serious doubt.
C = violence - 4 = killed woman (non-relative) with knife, 3 = killed female relative with knife, 2 = violence with a knife, 1 = violence without a knife, 0 = no known violence.
D = mental health issues - 2 = serious/violent, 1 = other, 0 = none known.
E = police interest - 2 = at the time, 1 = later (within 10 yrs) 0 = none known
F = hatred/dislike of women/prostitutes - 2 = yes, 1 = link to prostitutes, 0 = none.
G = medical/anatomical knowledge (inc. animals) - 1 = yes, 0 = no.
H = alcohol/drug issue - 1 = yes, 0 = none known.



A B C D E F G H
13 = 2 - 2 - 3 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 | Kelly, James
11 = 2 - 2 - 3 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 | Bury, William Henry
09 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 | Cutbush, Thomas Hayne
09 = 2 - 1 - 4 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 | Deeming, Frederick Bailey
09 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 | Hyams, Hyam
09 = 2 - 1 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 | Grainger, William Grant
08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 | Kosminski, Aaron (Aron Mordke Kozminski)
08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 | Pizer, John "Leather Apron"
08 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 | Lechmere, Charles Allen
08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 | Barnado, Thomas John
07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 | Chapman, George (Seweryn Antonowicz Kłosowski)
07 = 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 | Tumblety, Francis
07 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 | Smith, G. Wentworth Bell
07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 | Cohen, David
07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 | Kidney, Michael
06 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 | Thompson, Francis
06 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 | Levy, Jacob
05 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 | Druitt, Montague John
05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 | Barnett, Joseph
04 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 | Stephen, James Kenneth
05 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 | Stephenson, Robert Donston (or Roslyn D'Onston)
04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 | Bachert, Albert
04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 | Cross, Charles
04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 | Hardiman, James
04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 | Hutchinson, George
04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 | Mann, Robert
04 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 | Maybrick, James
03 = 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 | Sickert, Walter Richard
02 = 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 | Gull, Sir William Withey


sorry Abby, tech problem with the letters at the top I’ll ask Blackchapel for advice.

[Abby Normal]

Thanks for that Blackchapel. I much prefer the way that you’ve set it out so that’s the format I’ll use from now on. I’ve added the two missing values too. Well spotted.

13 = 2 - 2 - 3 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 | Kelly, James
11 = 2 - 2 - 3 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 | Bury, William Henry
09 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 | Cutbush, Thomas Hayne
09 = 2 - 1 - 4 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 | Deeming, Frederick Bailey
09 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 | Hyams, Hyam
09 = 2 - 1 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 | Grainger, William Grant
08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 | Kosminski, Aaron (Aron Mordke Kozminski)
08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 | Pizer, John "Leather Apron"
08 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 | Lechmere, Charles Allen
08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 | Barnado, Thomas John
07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 | Chapman, George (Seweryn Antonowicz Kłosowski)
07 = 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 | Tumblety, Francis
07 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 | Smith, G. Wentworth Bell
07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 | Cohen, David
07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 | Kidney, Michael
06 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 | Thompson, Francis
06 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 | Levy, Jacob
05 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 | Druitt, Montague John
05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 | Barnett, Joseph
04 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 | Stephen, James Kenneth
05 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 | Stephenson, Robert Donston (or Roslyn D'Onston)
04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 | Bachert, Albert
04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 | Cross, Charles
04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 | Hardiman, James
04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 | Hutchinson, George
04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 | Mann, Robert
04 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 | Maybrick, James
03 = 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 | Sickert, Walter Richard
02 = 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 | Gull, Sir William Withey

nice work gentleman. can you add the 8 criteria at the top so we know which numbers line up to which category?