Rating The Suspects.

[Geddy2112]

On another note I sought the opinion of a master butcher/slaughterman his statement is set out below

Apologies for the very slight detour, can I ask your opinion here https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...ctims-injuries from what you have found out.. thank you kindly.

Sorry back to the...

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor, good to see you're back.

That's nice to know as my inclination is that suspects with anatomical knowledge are probably better matches, particularly if JtR was searching for specific organs at the time. If, however, he had no particular organ in mind and just took what he found, then the "time to search" consideration doesn't enter into it because he just took what he happened across. As unlikely as it may be to just "happen across a kidney", given it's behind a membrane, under the circumstances JtR wouldn't be exploring through sight but through touch, and feeling something "hard and firm" like a kidney wouldn't be prevented just because visually it is concealed by a membrane.

These are, of course, just lines of thought and certainly not definitive ideas. And regardless of whether or not JtR had the specific intensions of taking any particular organ before the murders, I would be highly surprised if it turned out that JtR did not have some practical experience, however gained, of opening up and exploring the insides of at least animals. And that would provide him with sufficient anatomical knowledge and "skill" (experience) to perform the mutilations as they presented at the crime scene.

I think some "practical skill" but not professionally trained could suggest an explanation for why the medical opinion at the time was so all over the place - some saw the skilled while others saw the amateur aspects of his "ability." But again, that's just one of many possibilities, as with so much JtR.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff

On another note I sought the opinion of a master butcher/slaughterman his statement is set out below

I would probably be able to facilitate the removal of the organs but I would need there to be sufficient light and it would need to be a controlled situation and time would be needed to complete the removal. In removing a uterus from a human body I would not need to take out the intestines, as I know the uterus sits in the lower abdomen. I would not be able to use a six-inch bladed knife to remove the kidney.

I have also been asked whether I could carefully remove these same organs in almost total darkness using a six-inch sharp-bladed knife. If I were to attempt these removals from a human body in almost total darkness I would encounter many problems. The first would be the need for a big enough incision for me to be able to gain access to the stomach. The second would be trying to locate the organs, which would be wet and slippery and covered with blood from the abdomen.
This in itself would cause great difficulty in gripping them sufficiently to be able to remove them carefully. I would also not want to be working with a sharp knife in an abdomen not being able to see what I was doing or where my fingers were with where I was attempting to cut. I would also say that I would find it difficult to work with a long-bladed knife and could not remove a kidney using a six-inch bladed knife. If I were in a hurry to remove a kidney and were able to find the renal fat, which encases the kidney, then I would be able to grip it and rip it out by hand.

I was trying to be subjective in my post, but that doesn't detract from my long-standing belief that JTR did not remove any organs from the victims at the crime scenes.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[JeffHamm]

If you want to rate the Royal Conspiracy it gets complicated. You have both Sickert and Gull not London, so that should make the location rating for the Conspiracy even worse than for Gull or Sickert separately. And if your theory has Netley doing the killing, it still requires a lot of effort out of an elderly stroke victim.

And, one would probably want to include a negative value for "retracted by source", given Gorman (Knight's primary source for the Royal Conspiracy Theory) admitted it was something he just made up.

- Jeff

[Fiver]

With regard to Gull, my understanding of the theory as presented is that Netley did the killing and Gull did the mutilations after the victim was dead....no heavy lifting required by the latter. Perhaps the listing should be Gull/Netley, with the rating adjusted accordingly?

Cheers, George

If you want to rate the Royal Conspiracy it gets complicated. You have both Sickert and Gull not London, so that should make the location rating for the Conspiracy even worse than for Gull or Sickert separately. And if your theory has Netley doing the killing, it still requires a lot of effort out of an elderly stroke victim.

[JeffHamm]

A modern day medical expert states that "In both the removals of the uterus and the kidney he says that in his opinion it would not be the skill, but the level of anatomical knowledge that would determine the time needed at the crime scene to effect these removals. He also believes that if the killer did remove the organs then he must have had sufficient anatomical knowledge, otherwise, he would not have had the time to search for the organs and work out how to remove them within that “at least five-minute window”

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor, good to see you're back.

That's nice to know as my inclination is that suspects with anatomical knowledge are probably better matches, particularly if JtR was searching for specific organs at the time. If, however, he had no particular organ in mind and just took what he found, then the "time to search" consideration doesn't enter into it because he just took what he happened across. As unlikely as it may be to just "happen across a kidney", given it's behind a membrane, under the circumstances JtR wouldn't be exploring through sight but through touch, and feeling something "hard and firm" like a kidney wouldn't be prevented just because visually it is concealed by a membrane.

These are, of course, just lines of thought and certainly not definitive ideas. And regardless of whether or not JtR had the specific intensions of taking any particular organ before the murders, I would be highly surprised if it turned out that JtR did not have some practical experience, however gained, of opening up and exploring the insides of at least animals. And that would provide him with sufficient anatomical knowledge and "skill" (experience) to perform the mutilations as they presented at the crime scene.

I think some "practical skill" but not professionally trained could suggest an explanation for why the medical opinion at the time was so all over the place - some saw the skilled while others saw the amateur aspects of his "ability." But again, that's just one of many possibilities, as with so much JtR.

- Jeff

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Lewis C,

That's a good way of putting it too. A bit of it depends on how one interprets the medical statements at the "no knowledge/skill" end. If the doctors at the time who expressed the "no skill/knowledge" simply meant nothing in the crime behaviour requires either, that means the killer need not have either, but also, having it isn't a deal breaker. However, if they intended it to mean "the killer clearly does not have the skill/knowledge", then having those things reduces the fit with their opinions (though increases the fit with other doctors).

In some ways, because it is so unclear whether or not JtR needs to have either, this item is probably a bit suspect as to its information value. But, given that mutilator killers tend to have a history of mutilating animals (even if they are not specifically trained, they gain their own practical experience), I think suspects who can be shown to have such knowledge/skill probably are better than those form whom as far as we know would cut themselves at the dinner table if they didn't take care.

I'm trying to think of a single medically trained serial killer who was also a mutilator, and at the moment I can't think of one. Most medically trained serial killers that come to mind (as in doctor's or nurses) tend to kill patients through overdoses, basically medical poisoners. Even Dr. Cream was a poisoner, although his victims weren't his "patients" per se, he was tricking his London victims into taking his pills by telling them it was medicine, and had killed patients in Canada and the US. I'm not saying it's impossible, and I may just be overlooking someone, but none come to mind. Note, I'm not considering doctors/nurses who kill a spouse and may dismember them in order to dispose of the body as that's a very different thing to a serial killer who mutilates strangers as their victims.

I may have overlooked someone, or simply be unaware of them, but is anyone aware of any medically trained serial killers who killed strangers and (call this category A) performed mutilations? What about "category B": killed with knife, blunt force trauma, manual strangulation - meaning up close and personal type killings and not guns, poison, etc?

- Jeff

A modern day medical expert states that "In both the removals of the uterus and the kidney he says that in his opinion it would not be the skill, but the level of anatomical knowledge that would determine the time needed at the crime scene to effect these removals. He also believes that if the killer did remove the organs then he must have had sufficient anatomical knowledge, otherwise, he would not have had the time to search for the organs and work out how to remove them within that “at least five-minute window”

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

The way I look at it, The Ripper may or may not have needed some degree of anatomical skill/knowledge. Therefore, all else being equal, if a suspect had that, he would be a stronger suspect than one that didn't have that, because if that was necessary, that would mean that someone who didn't have it couldn't have been the Ripper. However, if someone did have that knowledge/skill, he could have been the Ripper whether he needed to have that skill or not.

Hi Lewis C,

That's a good way of putting it too. A bit of it depends on how one interprets the medical statements at the "no knowledge/skill" end. If the doctors at the time who expressed the "no skill/knowledge" simply meant nothing in the crime behaviour requires either, that means the killer need not have either, but also, having it isn't a deal breaker. However, if they intended it to mean "the killer clearly does not have the skill/knowledge", then having those things reduces the fit with their opinions (though increases the fit with other doctors).

In some ways, because it is so unclear whether or not JtR needs to have either, this item is probably a bit suspect as to its information value. But, given that mutilator killers tend to have a history of mutilating animals (even if they are not specifically trained, they gain their own practical experience), I think suspects who can be shown to have such knowledge/skill probably are better than those form whom as far as we know would cut themselves at the dinner table if they didn't take care.

I'm trying to think of a single medically trained serial killer who was also a mutilator, and at the moment I can't think of one. Most medically trained serial killers that come to mind (as in doctor's or nurses) tend to kill patients through overdoses, basically medical poisoners. Even Dr. Cream was a poisoner, although his victims weren't his "patients" per se, he was tricking his London victims into taking his pills by telling them it was medicine, and had killed patients in Canada and the US. I'm not saying it's impossible, and I may just be overlooking someone, but none come to mind. Note, I'm not considering doctors/nurses who kill a spouse and may dismember them in order to dispose of the body as that's a very different thing to a serial killer who mutilates strangers as their victims.

I may have overlooked someone, or simply be unaware of them, but is anyone aware of any medically trained serial killers who killed strangers and (call this category A) performed mutilations? What about "category B": killed with knife, blunt force trauma, manual strangulation - meaning up close and personal type killings and not guns, poison, etc?

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

Maybe part of the answer is to ignore comments that are patently absurd, where the weakness of the argument is so easily seen that it isn't even necessary to say anything. It may be that rebutting that kind of comment just encourages that poster to do more of it.

Hi Lewis,

It’s good advice and you’re not the first to give it. I prefer honest discussion/debate where people actually answer questions so I keep trying to get an honest response but I realise that I’m wasting my time with some because all that I get is ducking and diving, obfuscation, semantics and worse. Time to stop giving time to time wasters.

[Lewis C]

I don’t consider myself ‘in charge’ of this thread because I’m not but I did start the thread with one very clear aim which was to place the suspects into a tick box list to see what might be the likeliest type of person to have been the killer and how the suspects stack up. So the whole purpose of this thread is clear to all and it was definitely not to focus on just two suspects. We now find that this thread has been hijacked and is being used as a tool for criticising one suspect whilst promoting another for purely personal reasons.

If certain posters aren’t interested in the thread as a whole and it’s original aim wouldn’t it be a better idea to simply not bother posting instead of trying to discourage anyone else from posting on it by turning it into a farce for their own agendas? There is a name for this kind of activity.

Hi Herlock,

Maybe part of the answer is to ignore comments that are patently absurd, where the weakness of the argument is so easily seen that it isn't even necessary to say anything. It may be that rebutting that kind of comment just encourages that poster to do more of it.

[Lewis C]

Also, it is critical that one keeps separate the difference between "anatomical knowledge" and "anatomical skill". When the medical professionals mention "knowledge", they are saying to some extent or another that the killer knew where things were in the body cavity - this usually is based upon removing the kidneys as they are behind a membrane. Skill refers to having had experience with removing things from the body. I, for example, know where the kidneys are located (more or less), but I've never removed them. So I may have some anatomical knowledge, but I do not have anatomical skill. Dr. Brown, for example, thought Eddowes' killer had both the knowledge of where the kidneys were located, and of how to remove them.

[Coroner] Would you consider that the person who inflicted the wounds possessed anatomical skill? - He must have had a good deal of knowledge as to the position of the abdominal organs, and the way to remove them.
[Coroner] Would the parts removed be of any use for professional purposes? - None whatever.
[Coroner] Would the removal of the kidney, for example, require special knowledge? - It would require a good deal of knowledge as to its position, because it is apt to be overlooked, being covered by a membrane.
[Coroner] Would such a knowledge be likely to be possessed by some one accustomed to cutting up animals? - Yes.

Note, the last question by the coroner (would someone who cuts up animals know where the kidneys were located) doesn't mention skill. However, it sort of goes without saying that if someone is accustomed to cutting up animals to the point they have gained the knowledge of where the kidneys are located, then they will have acquired skills to do so as well.

Dr. Sequeira did not directly comment upon anatomical knowledge in his testimony, but was not of the opinion that the killer had any real skill:

By Mr. Crawford: I am well acquainted with the locality and the position of the lamps in the square. Where the murder was committed was probably the darkest part of the square, but there was sufficient light to enable the miscreant to perpetrate the deed. I think that the murderer had no design on any particular organ of the body. He was not possessed of any great anatomical skill.

I've underlined the "no design" section, as this indicates that Dr. Sequeira did not think the killer necessarily even had anatomical knowledge (because, if the killer wasn't specifically targeting the uterus and kidneys, then they were taken simply because he found them, not because he knew where to look!).

So I think your pointing out that there was disagreement at the time is spot on (obviously, Dr. Phillip's suggestion that Chapman's killer had experience in the dissection room means the upper range of knowledge, and presumably skill, is even higher than Dr. Brown's opinion). And as you point out, Dr. Bond's review of the case files at the time lead him to the "no knowledge/experience" end of things.

Which brings us to whether or not this item should be on Herlock's checklist at all? The idea is to tick off bits that correspond to JtR, but which end of the scale corresponds?

If, for example, one views the medical opinion of "no knowledge/skill" as the one to fit to, then the more knowledge and skill a suspect should have, the less they correspond to that set of views. At the moment, the checklist presumes that suspects with that knowledge are a better fit, but there is the possibility that less is more on this particular item.

However, the exact opposite argument could also be made, and that one could argue the more knowledge/skill a suspect can be shown to have, the greater the correspondence with JtR, which in a way is how Herlock originally scored this (2 for medical level knowledge/skill 1 for animal level, and 0 for none).

In my view, the current 1 or 0 coding strikes the right balance. The range of opinions is so wide that I think there is no reason to weight surgical experience as more indicative of JtR than experience with cutting up animals. Also, given that it is very common for those who end up engaging in mutilation murders to have started out by cutting up animals, I think if it can be shown that a suspect has had that experience then that at least does make sense. In fact, if we were to have a "level 2" match, I think it would have to be something extraordinary, such as finding out that a suspect, as a child, had engaged in cutting up animals in a deviant way (killing neighborhood cats or dogs, type thing). That would be a red flag of interest, raising them above someone who, through the course of their profession, has gained such knowledge and skill. All butchers, slaughterman, and doctors will have gained the knowledge of where organs tend to be, how to find them, and will have obtained some degree of experience (doctors will all have done some sort of dissections during their medical training, even if they don't go on to practice surgery, for example).

- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

The way I look at it, The Ripper may or may not have needed some degree of anatomical skill/knowledge. Therefore, all else being equal, if a suspect had that, he would be a stronger suspect than one that didn't have that, because if that was necessary, that would mean that someone who didn't have it couldn't have been the Ripper. However, if someone did have that knowledge/skill, he could have been the Ripper whether he needed to have that skill or not.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Don't let the barstools drag you down old boy. Chin up etc. Plus if they want to contribute away from this thread they can answer mine about the bloody rib cages and kidney... had no bites yet haha.



There is a few I think, 'doing a Fisherman' is one I believe haha

Cheers Geddy. ‘Contributing’ is a problem though when all that it entails is making largely irrelevant points and then refusing point blank to respond directly to the points and questions of others.


Herlock’s Maxim No 5 - “If you can’t answer a question just say so. Don’t ignore it or pretend that you’ve already answered it.”

[Geddy2112]

If certain posters aren’t interested in the thread as a whole and it’s original aim wouldn’t it be a better idea to simply not bother posting instead of trying to discourage anyone else from posting on it by turning it into a farce for their own agendas?

Don't let the barstools drag you down old boy. Chin up etc. Plus if they want to contribute away from this thread they can answer mine about the bloody rib cages and kidney... had no bites yet haha.

There is a name for this kind of activity.

There is a few I think, 'doing a Fisherman' is one I believe haha

[Herlock Sholmes]

I don’t consider myself ‘in charge’ of this thread because I’m not but I did start the thread with one very clear aim which was to place the suspects into a tick box list to see what might be the likeliest type of person to have been the killer and how the suspects stack up. So the whole purpose of this thread is clear to all and it was definitely not to focus on just two suspects. We now find that this thread has been hijacked and is being used as a tool for criticising one suspect whilst promoting another for purely personal reasons.

If certain posters aren’t interested in the thread as a whole and it’s original aim wouldn’t it be a better idea to simply not bother posting instead of trying to discourage anyone else from posting on it by turning it into a farce for their own agendas? There is a name for this kind of activity.

[Herlock Sholmes]

What was Macnaghten’s window cleaners opinion?

This isn’t a Druitt thread. You are attempting to derail and thread with irrelevancies. No answers to questions as ever.

Still, at least we now know that you are now Team Gull and believe him a stronger suspect than Kosminski.

[The Baron]

In 1972, two years before she died, Macnaghten's daughter told her friend Michael Thornton that in nominating Druitt her father was "only following the official line. The truth could make the throne totter."
Thornton reported this in the Sunday Express in 1992.

Even Macnaghten's own daughter didn't believe Druitt was the ripper.


The Baron