Rating The Suspects.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ll explain my thinking and anyone is free to comment, agree or disagree.

Druitt > 2 - 2 - 0 -1 - 1 - 0 = 6

Age/Physical - 2 (speaks for itself)
Location - 2 (speaks for itself, nothing about where Druitt lived precluded or hindered him from being the killer)
Mental Health Issues - 1 (speaks for itself. Druitt committed suicide and feared that he was going to end up like his mother who was in an asylum)
Police Interest - 1 (speaks for itself Mac names him but after the crimes)

So I see nothing wrong with Druitt’s score of 6.

Gull > 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 = 3

I’ll invite comment because I think that there’s a case for Gull being eliminated, and of course Fishy will think I’m being personal, so I’ll make my point and leave it entirely up to everyone else on here.

As I was being over harsh on Druitt in connection to location because I was trying too hard to show that I was being unbiased I think that I’ve been to easy on Gull in regard to Age/Physical. So when does a proposed suspect become too old or too infirm to be considered a serious suspect? At the time of the murders William Gull was 71 (double or more than the average age for a serial killer) and added to that he’d had multiple, debilitating strokes. Yes, he recovered in so much as he wasn’t bedridden or unable to speak or feed himself so he could live a fairly normal life. But he was forced by the illness to give up his job and this wasn’t a physical job. He wasn’t a surgeon after all. His job was to sit in his consulting room listening to wealthy patients and making a diagnosis. So we have a 71 year old man incapable of doing that.

So what does everyone think? Should a 71 year old multiple stroke victim be eliminated from the list?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Your question begs another question.

Why then does he remains a "top suspect" according to some, if quite clearly he falls into the very highly unlikely category?


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I have no influence over other people’s opinion on Druitt, Fishy. I can only assume that your ‘some’ means me? Here’s a few questions that, if you’re consistent, you will completely ignore. In fact I’ll probably be in danger of a heart attack if you do answer them because it will be a first.

1. Why does my opinion on Druitt bother you so much? (and please don’t say that it doesn’t because your numerous Druitt-related comments prove otherwise)
2. Why, when there is no evidence against any suspect, do you only consider this worth mentioning in regard to Druitt?
3. Why do you think that a physically fit 31 year old is less likely to have been the killer than a 71 year old multiple stroke victim who was no longer able to even continue his job as a Doctor.

As I said…I expect no answer so if you don’t intend an answer please just refrain from the kind of stuff you posted in #43 please. We’ve had enough of that.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I do wish you'd read my post comments property herlock ,you seem to have gone off track a little, you know the part about why I made my original score comment.?

Oh and do try to stick to this topic when replying we've covered " 3 worse suspect" one already , which of course once again you failed to accept a simple opinion.

Again , my original score comments is my opinion based on the evidence as I see and interpret it , I told you why I didn't elaborate on it and your above post proves that .

So just for once man up and trying asking me why I scored them the way I did and let the evidence decide it its right or wrong .

I’m not going to pursue this further Fishy because we’ve been here a hundred times. You say something then when someone points it out we get the ‘Fishy wriggle’ where you simply can’t bring yourself to admit what’s in black and white. So to sum up - you said that Druitt was one of the three worst suspects (proven in black and white) then after I challenged how you could put him at the very bottom you, realising that what you said couldn’t be sustained, sidestepped and added ‘three worst suspects of those regularly discussed) (proven in black and white) Then you simply posted your alternative scores believing yourself exempt from providing reasoning like everyone else, expect me to ask for reasoning (proven in black and white)

And now again in your last line you keep asking me to ask you for your reasoning. Why this need for me to plead Fishy? I stick to the facts while you post as if Gull is your favourite football team and Druitt is the local rival. Your issue with me constantly affects and guides your posts. Please stop dragging this thread away from its purpose.

[rjpalmer]

Your question begs another question.

I never asked a question.

[FISHY1118]

As I tried to explain when the Blandford cricket match first came up on JTR Forums----it's the other way round.

Druitt was not stationed in London and traveling down to play cricket in Dorset. Had that been the case, then he certainly would have stayed over since he was playing two different matches over a three-day span.

But that's not the situation. Valentine's school was out for summer break, and Druitt spent his entire Augusts in Dorset. Not just in 1888, but in 1887, 1886, etc.

As such, he wasn't living in Blackheath and travelling back and forth to Dorset. He was living in Dorset for several weeks.

So, the real question is somewhat different. Stationed down in Dorset, would he have traveled to London for just one day and night and somehow end up in East London?

One can argue yes or no, but the dynamics of the situation are entirely different than how it is being formulated.

Your question begs another question.

Why then does he remains a "top suspect" according to some, if quite clearly he falls into the very highly unlikely category?


.

[FISHY1118]

And when you realise that the game is up its ‘time to move on.’ Perhaps I should do a poll on who is right here and who is wrong. No point…you wouldn’t get a single vote Fishy because you’re wrong and you know it. Don’t let personal animosity trump reasoning.

Time to move on..

I do wish you'd read my post comments property herlock ,you seem to have gone off track a little, you know the part about why I made my original score comment.?

Oh and do try to stick to this topic when replying we've covered " 3 worse suspect" one already , which of course once again you failed to accept a simple opinion.

Again , my original score comments is my opinion based on the evidence as I see and interpret it , I told you why I didn't elaborate on it and your above post proves that .

So just for once man up and trying asking me why I scored them the way I did and let the evidence decide it its right or wrong .

[Herlock Sholmes]

The other point was that some said ‘why would he have travelled back just to kill and then returned to Blandford?’ My point was that he didn’t need to have returned just to kill. If he had some kind of meeting that couldn’t be cancelled (possibly to do with his work as a Barrister or even some kind of Blackheath Club business [he was club secretary]) is it likely that he/d gave cancelled his whole holiday or is it likelier that he’d have gone and planned to come back by train to attend his meeting. Then, finding himself in London…

Speculation of course but either way, a journey back to London wouldn’t have been prohibitive or particularly strange.

[rjpalmer]

Good morning again Hurley and thank you,



But isn't the reason folks figured it unlikely he would have travelled back to London is because he was also down south playing cricket the day after the Nichols murder? Doesn't it seem like he would simply stay over in his home county the day between cricket matches there? Creating "some doubt" in category #2.

That's how I see the question raised by the new research.

You are entitled to your opinion of course, and by the way, I do like your poll, Hurley. I find it interesting.

As I tried to explain when the Blandford cricket match first came up on JTR Forums----it's the other way round.

Druitt was not stationed in London and traveling down to play cricket in Dorset. Had that been the case, then he certainly would have stayed over since he was playing two different matches over a three-day span.

But that's not the situation. Valentine's school was out for summer break, and Druitt spent his entire Augusts in Dorset. Not just in 1888, but in 1887, 1886, etc.

As such, he wasn't living in Blackheath and travelling back and forth to Dorset. He was living in Dorset for several weeks.

So, the real question is somewhat different. Stationed down in Dorset, would he have traveled to London for just one day and night and somehow end up in East London?

One can argue yes or no, but the dynamics of the situation are entirely different than how it is being formulated.

[Paddy Goose]

Good morning again Hurley and thank you,

...The day before the Nichols murder Druitt was down south playing cricket and a few thought it unlikely that he would have travelled back...

But isn't the reason folks figured it unlikely he would have travelled back to London is because he was also down south playing cricket the day after the Nichols murder? Doesn't it seem like he would simply stay over in his home county the day between cricket matches there? Creating "some doubt" in category #2.

That's how I see the question raised by the new research.

You are entitled to your opinion of course, and by the way, I do like your poll, Hurley. I find it interesting.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ahhh so now you want explain yourself ,to late for that i should think , you cant undo whats done Herlock . Im not interested in your reasoning if your not willing to entertain mine .

I would have listened to your reasoning if you had given some Fishy. Every contributor to this thread has given the reasoning behind their suggestions. You posted this in post #7

“Gull = 5
Sickert = 4
Druitt = 4
My comments based on the table provided.”

Do you see any reasoning there? Any explanation as to why you added to Gull Sickert (who just happen to be the ones that you support) and took from Druitt (who you believe is the suspect that I support) You didn’t add or detract from any other suspects; just a focus on those three. Your intention couldn’t be clearer.

For me to ‘entertain’ your reasoning you have to give your reasoning first.

Just keep moving the goal post ok .

Your original point was made in the Geoprofiling thread where you said:

“Imo Druitt , Lechmere , and Maybrick make the 3 worse suspects as there is no evidence they were the killer nor were they suspected by the police at the time of the murders .”

So, as we can see, you made an unequivocal point about those three being the worst suspects and not ‘the worst suspects of those regularly discussed’ as you later tried to claim. So another point easily proven…it is you that is attempting to move the goalposts away from what you originally said.

My point regarding the sickert ,gull, druitt score according to your own system is warranted . Remember , you asked for a comment or suggestion , you got it and now you sook up because you got yourself all worked about it .

Every single poster has given the reasoning behind their suggestions and I’ve reacted to them all. But not you…you said:

“I didnt see the point in giving my reasoning for the score adjustment . That would then require follow up discussion and debate.”

And there’s the difference. I’m doing this table fairly, for no personal gain, entirely open to suggestions, and by being willing to explain my reasoning behind every single suspect and I’ve made changes when errors have been pointed out. You, on the other hand, have just made statements without backing them up with reasoning which is something that you tend to do.

Time to move on.

And when you realise that the game is up its ‘time to move on.’ Perhaps I should do a poll on who is right here and who is wrong. No point…you wouldn’t get a single vote Fishy because you’re wrong and you know it. Don’t let personal animosity trump reasoning.

Time to move on..

[FISHY1118]

Totally wrong Fishy. I don’t alter the points at random. The list is totally unbiased as I’ve proven by listening to every point made and by making changes where appropriate. I’ll explain (which I would have done anyway if you had simply asked) When I began this I was determined that no one should feel that I was being biased for or against any suspect. I was particularly wary considering my own interest in Druitt. So I wanted to be as strict as possible with him to the extent that if a particular point was debatable i would err against awarding the point. The day before the Nichols murder Druitt was down south playing cricket and a few thought it unlikely that he would have travelled back so I deducted a point for that. But then, on rethinking, I saw that I was being too harsh. The scoring system wasn’t meant to conclude that a mere one off, easily achievable train journey should cost a point so I reinstated it. It’s barely made any difference though and the purpose of my list wasn’t to form a league table of likely suspects it was merely to see how individual suspects stacked up against a tick box list of regularly discussed attributes.

Ahhh so now you want explain yourself ,to late for that i should think , you cant undo whats done Herlock . Im not interested in your reasoning if your not willing to entertain mine .

Just keep moving the goal post ok . My point regarding the sickert ,gull, druitt score according to your own system is warranted . Remember , you asked for a comment or suggestion , you got it and now you sook up because you got yourself all worked about it . Time to move on.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Your not going to ''Get back into it'' Herlock because then youd have to address some of the points ive made in my last post, which you just casually brushed aside . The fact [ and its blatantly obvious] remains Herlock ,you have a disliking of anything i happen to have an opinion on, especially where Druitt is concerned .

You didn’t make any points in your last post Fishy and the post before that you only posted the scores that you would have awarded to the three suspects names. Every other poster who has suggested amendments to the list has given their reasoning behind those suggestions but not you. You simply posted the scores with no explanation.

Like i said, ive done more than enough research using on the evidence from multiple sources pertaining to the likes of Druitt , Sickert and Gull. [as well as other suspects] Now based on the scoring system you yourself provided and invited others to comment on, i gave my honest opinion . This only bothers you because its Fishy1118 and not someone else. !

Firstly, you said that Druitt was one of the three worst suspects, only then when I pressed you on this point, you added something about ‘regularly discussed on here.’ Your original point was very clearly intended to put Druitt below all other suspects which, no matter our opinions, cannot be considered valid because it would place him lower than the ‘silly’ suspects.

Secondly Fishy, I don’t base my opinion on the poster who gives it. Over the last few years I’ve lost count of the amount of times when a thread entirely unconnected to Druitt has been in progress and of all of the suspects you’ve managed to bring Druitt into it. No one else does this. If Steve Blomer was posting about the GSG you don’t see me jumping in and adding ‘and poor suspects like Kosminski (not that I think that he’s a poor suspect of course) Or if John Wheat is posting on a thread about Berner Street that I say ‘that’s about as likely as Bury being the ripper,’ but this is what keeps occurring from you where Druitt is concerned. Forget all of the other suspects because you keep homing in on Druitt for some reason (and I can only guess that reason). I wouldn’t mind but I’ve never once in my entire life said that he was the ripper. Why don’t you just finally let it go Fishy. If you want to discuss Druitt there are enough threads or you could even start your own.

I know it ,you know it , and im reasonably sure others do to .

The half a dozen that have contacted me say otherwise.

As for '' Winding you Up ' I hardly need do such a thing, as you seem to do a pretty good job of that all by yourself whenever the topic is Druitt related .

I don’t get wound up over Druitt because he’s not particularly important to me. I do find it irritating when others get so irate when any mention of his name occurs. Very few suspects cause such heightened feeling for some inexplicable reason. All sense of balance flies out of the window. I can only think that, in your case, it’s because of some issue that you have with me.

I tend to think that your irritation is due to the fact that the Stephen Knight theory has been thoroughly discredited and that you are a little annoyed? embarrassed? to be the only person still flying the flag and you can’t fail to realise the position that it puts you in when evaluating suspects. Perhaps you should approach the subject of suspects less like a football team that requires your support?

Funny how you elevated Druitt ''Location'' to a '2' only for that which can be argued ''Well he could been there'' so thats all that matters . Well then so could have Sickert or Gull for that matter .

Totally wrong Fishy. I don’t alter the points at random. The list is totally unbiased as I’ve proven by listening to every point made and by making changes where appropriate. I’ll explain (which I would have done anyway if you had simply asked) When I began this I was determined that no one should feel that I was being biased for or against any suspect. I was particularly wary considering my own interest in Druitt. So I wanted to be as strict as possible with him to the extent that if a particular point was debatable i would err against awarding the point. The day before the Nichols murder Druitt was down south playing cricket and a few thought it unlikely that he would have travelled back so I deducted a point for that. But then, on rethinking, I saw that I was being too harsh. The scoring system wasn’t meant to conclude that a mere one off, easily achievable train journey should cost a point so I reinstated it. It’s barely made any difference though and the purpose of my list wasn’t to form a league table of likely suspects it was merely to see how individual suspects stacked up against a tick box list of regularly discussed attributes.

[FISHY1118]

I’m not going to get back into this Fishy. If you want me to spend the time looking back at how many times you’ve taken the opportunity without prompting to leap in with a Druitt-related dig I can do it. You focus on Druitt for one reason only because you have the misguided opinion that I somehow promote Druitt as a suspect and so by digging at him you feel that you have a ‘safe’ way of indirectly having a dig at me. I know it, you know it, everyone that can read knows it. I’ve lost count of the times I’ve been contacted privately telling me to ignore you because you’re simply trying to ‘wind me up.’ I’ve explained my position on Druitt two or three hundred times but obviously it makes no difference.

Ive just looked at Druitt again. I was too harsh on him. So I’ve amended it to the score that I was originally going to give him.


Kelly > 2 - 2 - 4 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 = 13

Bury > 2 - 2 - 4 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 = 11

Cutbush > 2 - 2 - 3 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 = 10

Hyams > 2 - 2 - 3 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 9

Kosminski 2 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 = 8

Grainger > 2 - 1 - 3 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 = 8

Chapman > 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 = 7

Tumblety > 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 2 - 1 = 7

Thompson > 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 = 6

Barnado > 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 = 6

Cohen > 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 6

Levy > 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 = 6

Druitt > 2 - 2 - 0 -1 - 1 - 0 = 6

Barnett > 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 = 5

Stephen > 2 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 5

Stephenson > 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 = 4

Bachert > 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 4

Cross > 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 4

Hardiman > 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 4

Hutchinson > 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 4

Mann > 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 4

Gull > 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 = 3

Maybrick > 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 3

Sickert > 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 3



If it could be shown that it was reasonably possible that they were in England…


Deeming 2 - 1 - 4 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 7

Feigenbaum 2 - 1 - 4 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 7

Your not going to ''Get back into it'' Herlock because then youd have to address some of the points ive made in my last post, which you just casually brushed aside . The fact [ and its blatantly obvious] remains Herlock ,you have a disliking of anything i happen to have an opinion on, especially where Druitt is concerned .

Like i said, ive done more than enough research using on the evidence from multiple sources pertaining to the likes of Druitt , Sickert and Gull. [as well as other suspects] Now based on the scoring system you yourself provided and invited others to comment on, i gave my honest opinion . This only bothers you because its Fishy1118 and not someone else. !

I know it ,you know it , and im reasonably sure others do to .


As for '' Winding you Up ' I hardly need do such a thing, as you seem to do a pretty good job of that all by yourself whenever the topic is Druitt related .


Funny how you elevated Druitt ''Location'' to a '2' only for that which can be argued ''Well he could been there'' so thats all that matters . Well then so could have Sickert or Gull for that matter .

[Lewis C]

Thanks Lewis.

You're welcome Herlock. BTW, when I made that post, I didn't notice that George had just posted about Deeming, so if I said anything that was redundant after George's post, that's why.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Cohen was found in a brothel if it makes any difference.

Cheers Scott. I wasn’t aware of that. I used Morley’s book for basic suspect info and he doesn’t mention it. I’ll add it to the next amendment.