Rating The Suspects.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Stop looking, you know what you said and the context you said in . Move on .

You’ve invented that Fishy. Provide the evidence to prove that I’m wrong. You won’t be able to because I didn’t say it (and please don’t try the old ‘ive already proved it’ tactic because everyone will see through it)

[Herlock Sholmes]

It doesnt matter whether others support Gull or not Herlock , were merely pointing out, and giving evidence as to why we believe a flaw in your scoring sysem exist as we see it in regards to certain suspects , druitt and sickert included . Naturally you dont like it [ nothing new there ] and you become offensive towards anyone who opposes this .

And there we are again. I haven’t said one single offensive thing in this thread. Not one. But there you are using the same tactic that you used in the Richardson thread. Stick to the topic Fishy.

You made a point about Sickert….i changed it accordingly. How is that being unfair?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I know what it says [it hasnt changed] , i stand by what it ment .

You can’t prove it because it didn’t happen. You made it up.

[Herlock Sholmes]

So now you play the '' hard done by card ' ? gimmi a break herlock , if youd let baron and myself have a genuine opinion without going off the deep end because you dont agree it, them perhaps your threads wouldnt turn to shite like they do . It is you who should take the blame for that .

Everyone who has contributed to this thread have made reasonable, unbiased contributions. I have had no issue with any of them Fishy. I’ve made changes on advice including one that reduced Druitt and one that increased Sickert. The table has been done with scrupulous fairness. Only two people disagree. You, because it’s your suspect and because you have a bit of an obsession with Druitt and The Baron who, all of a sudden has miraculously transformed himself into Gull defender and has continued his issue with me which causes him to pipe up now and again to make some irrelevant Druitt-related comment. If you two would simply post on the topic and not form your opinion as to whether I’m involved or not we could discuss the case without ill feeling.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I dont use tactics and or word games herlock ,your the expert there .

It’s in black and white. I’m happy to leave it. I doubt that you will though.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Again, Your accepting on piece of evidence as factual over another that you cant say is not! . This is where your problem is Herlock, you simply ignore evidence that makes your argument less effective and most times contradictory, yet you believe it to be tru . You do it all the time .

Try Reading again.

'While enjoying himself in Scotland he was seized with ''SLIGHT'' paralysis the right side in october 1887. He recovered in ''Great Measure'' and returned to London''.

When you’re looking at things like this you have to take into account who said them (to assess their reliability and to understand who would be in a better position to know something) and how many different accounts there are. So for example, if 10 witnesses said that Mr X had light brown hair and 1 witness said that Mr X had black hair, the likelihood would be that the majority were correct.

You have taken one account and given it the seal of approval because it suits your narrative, whereas I have looked at a few. Then, and this is the most important part, who was in the best position to know about Gull’s health intimately and from personal experience. a) someone writing a generic short biography of a public figure, or b) the son-in-law and colleague of that person…a person who was also a Doctor and would have actually seen Gull in the flesh and spent time with him. Someone who would have been in regular contact getting updates on his health for his concerned wife?

Surely you can’t dispute that Theodore Dyke-Acland is overwhelmingly the best person to have given a fair and accurate (from a Doctor) summary of Gull’s illness? So what did Acland say?

“It was during his holiday in Scotland amid the scenes so congenial to him, that in October, 1887, he was struck down by paralysis, from which he never wholly recovered. In a few weeks he was moved to London. The end did not come until January, 1890, when a fresh and acute illness brought to a rapid close the strong life here too feebly portrayed.”

His obituary in The Times also stated: “ he never sufficiently recovered to resume his practice.”

You are quite free to pick the one that you prefer Fishy but I’ll go with Acland. Gull never fully recovered. Further evidence for this is that he stopped seeing patients (as confirmed in The Times). Hardly a strenuous job but Gull didn’t feel that he was up to it. Even his own words tell us that all was not well:

“one arrow has missed its mark but there are more in the quiver’. “ He knew that further attacks would occur after the initial one in Scotland.

Even Gull’s will recorded 2 more attacks.

Now…..I haven’t said that it was impossible for him to have been involved and I certainly haven’t claimed to be able to prove that he wasn’t involved but we are simply talking about likelihoods. For a start, if we talked about any series of unsolved murders and we suggested a killer who had been 71 at the time..what reaction would we expect to get? Double the average age of the higher age range of an average serial killer? And at a time of shorter lifespans where 71 then would have been the equivalent of an even older man now. How many people would say ‘yeah, 71 isn’t a problem’? Surely you can admit that age alone pushes Gull to the outer edges of likelihood? Then when we add his other health issues. Issues that forced him to retire from a non-physical job.

Purely for the criteria of age and physical health can anyone name another suspect who would rate lower than Gull?

[John Wheat]

Current standings

KEY
Age/Physical - [2] No problem, [1] = Some Doubt, [0] = Very Unlikely
Location - [2] = No Problem, [1] = Reasonable Travel/Some Doubt, [0] = Very Unlikely
Violence - [4] = Killed Woman (non-family member) with knife, [3] = Killed Woman (family member) with knife, [2] = Violence with a Knife, [1] = Violence Without a Knife, [0] = No Violence.
Mental Health Issues - [2] = Serious/Violent, [1] = Other, [0] = None Known
Police Interest - [2] = At the Time, [1] = Later, [0] = None Known.
Hatred/Dislike of Prostitutes/Women - [2] = Yes, [1] = Links to Prostitution, [0] = None Known
Medical/Anatomical Knowledge (Including Slaughterman and Butcher) - [1] = Yes, [0] = No
Alcohol/Drug Use - [1] = Yes, [0] = No

Rank	Suspect	Age/Physical	Location	Violence	Mental Health Issues	Police interest	Hatred/Dislike of Prostitutes/Women	Medical/Anatomical Knowledge Including Slaughterman & Butcher	Alcohol/Drug Use	Total
1	Kelly	2	2	3	2	2	1	0	1	13
2	Bury	2	2	3	0	2	1	0	1	11
3	Cutbush	2	2	2	2	0	1	0	0	9
4	Deeming	2	1	4	0	0	2	0	0	9
5	Hyams	2	2	2	2	0	0	0	1	9
6	Kosminski	2	2	1	2	1	0	0	0	8
7	Pizer	2	2	1	0	2	1	0	0	8
8	Grainger	2	1	2	0	1	1	0	1	8
9	GSC Lechmere	2	2	2	0	0	1	0	1	8
10	Chapman	2	2	1	0	1	0	1	0	7
11	Tumblety	1	1	0	0	2	2	1	0	7
12	Barnado	2	2	0	1	0	1	1	0	7
13	G. Wentworth Bell Smith	2	2	0	1	0	2	0	0	7
14	Cohen	2	2	1	1	0	1	0	0	7
15	Thompson	2	2	0	0	0	1	1	0	6
16	Levy	2	2	0	1	0	0	1	0	6
17	Druitt	2	1	0	1	1	0	0	0	5
18	Barnett	2	2	0	0	0	1	0	0	5
19	Stephenson	2	1	0	0	0	0	1	1	5
20	Stephen	2	1	0	1	0	0	0	0	4
21	Bachert	2	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	4
22	Cross	2	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	4
23	Hardiman	2	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	4
24	Hutchinson	2	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	4
25	Mann	2	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	4
26	Maybrick	2	1	0	0	0	0	0	1	4
27	Sickert	2	0	0	0	0	1	0	0	3
28	Gull	0	1	0	0	0	0	1	0	2

Bury's wife was an ex prostitute and Bury was reportedly a cat meat Butcher so shouldn't he have 2 more points? Also and this goes for Herlock's table too. Wasn't G Wentworth Bellsmith actually called Henry Wentworth Bellsmith? There's an old thread where someone I can't remember who did some research and found that it was highly likely that the G was a mistake and that he was actually Henry Wentworth Bellsmith. I'm pretty poor at linking old threads etc I apologise for that but if you look into the threads on Wentworth Bellsmith you'll find the info. Apart from these slight oversites I'm finding both Tab's and Herlock's tables really rather good.

Cheers John

[The Rookie Detective]

Current standings

KEY
Age/Physical - [2] No problem, [1] = Some Doubt, [0] = Very Unlikely
Location - [2] = No Problem, [1] = Reasonable Travel/Some Doubt, [0] = Very Unlikely
Violence - [4] = Killed Woman (non-family member) with knife, [3] = Killed Woman (family member) with knife, [2] = Violence with a Knife, [1] = Violence Without a Knife, [0] = No Violence.
Mental Health Issues - [2] = Serious/Violent, [1] = Other, [0] = None Known
Police Interest - [2] = At the Time, [1] = Later, [0] = None Known.
Hatred/Dislike of Prostitutes/Women - [2] = Yes, [1] = Links to Prostitution, [0] = None Known
Medical/Anatomical Knowledge (Including Slaughterman and Butcher) - [1] = Yes, [0] = No
Alcohol/Drug Use - [1] = Yes, [0] = No

Rank	Suspect	Age/Physical	Location	Violence	Mental Health Issues	Police interest	Hatred/Dislike of Prostitutes/Women	Medical/Anatomical Knowledge Including Slaughterman & Butcher	Alcohol/Drug Use	Total
1	Kelly	2	2	3	2	2	1	0	1	13
2	Bury	2	2	3	0	2	1	0	1	11
3	Cutbush	2	2	2	2	0	1	0	0	9
4	Deeming	2	1	4	0	0	2	0	0	9
5	Hyams	2	2	2	2	0	0	0	1	9
6	Kosminski	2	2	1	2	1	0	0	0	8
7	Pizer	2	2	1	0	2	1	0	0	8
8	Grainger	2	1	2	0	1	1	0	1	8
9	GSC Lechmere	2	2	2	0	0	1	0	1	8
10	Chapman	2	2	1	0	1	0	1	0	7
11	Tumblety	1	1	0	0	2	2	1	0	7
12	Barnado	2	2	0	1	0	1	1	0	7
13	G. Wentworth Bell Smith	2	2	0	1	0	2	0	0	7
14	Cohen	2	2	1	1	0	1	0	0	7
15	Thompson	2	2	0	0	0	1	1	0	6
16	Levy	2	2	0	1	0	0	1	0	6
17	Druitt	2	1	0	1	1	0	0	0	5
18	Barnett	2	2	0	0	0	1	0	0	5
19	Stephenson	2	1	0	0	0	0	1	1	5
20	Stephen	2	1	0	1	0	0	0	0	4
21	Bachert	2	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	4
22	Cross	2	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	4
23	Hardiman	2	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	4
24	Hutchinson	2	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	4
25	Mann	2	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	4
26	Maybrick	2	1	0	0	0	0	0	1	4
27	Sickert	2	0	0	0	0	1	0	0	3
28	Gull	0	1	0	0	0	0	1	0	2

Barnardo should have a 1 for violence after he physically assaulted a young woman after she tried to rescue her father from being beaten up by a mob of "Barbados Boys"
It was a dispute over a right of way access.
Barnardo was heard jeering the boys on to assault the man, when the man's daughter tried to intervene.
Barnardo physically pushed and shoved her over forcefully pushing her breasts. She fell backwards and another bystander remarked to her to not go and fight back for fear she would get hurt.

Barnardo had a violent streak and that should be acknowledged with a 1 and not a 0


RD

[Tab]

Current standings

KEY
Age/Physical - [2] No problem, [1] = Some Doubt, [0] = Very Unlikely
Location - [2] = No Problem, [1] = Reasonable Travel/Some Doubt, [0] = Very Unlikely
Violence - [4] = Killed Woman (non-family member) with knife, [3] = Killed Woman (family member) with knife, [2] = Violence with a Knife, [1] = Violence Without a Knife, [0] = No Violence.
Mental Health Issues - [2] = Serious/Violent, [1] = Other, [0] = None Known
Police Interest - [2] = At the Time, [1] = Later, [0] = None Known.
Hatred/Dislike of Prostitutes/Women - [2] = Yes, [1] = Links to Prostitution, [0] = None Known
Medical/Anatomical Knowledge (Including Slaughterman and Butcher) - [1] = Yes, [0] = No
Alcohol/Drug Use - [1] = Yes, [0] = No

Rank	Suspect	Age/Physical	Location	Violence	Mental Health Issues	Police interest	Hatred/Dislike of Prostitutes/Women	Medical/Anatomical Knowledge Including Slaughterman & Butcher	Alcohol/Drug Use	Total
1	Kelly	2	2	3	2	2	1	0	1	13
2	Bury	2	2	3	0	2	1	0	1	11
3	Cutbush	2	2	2	2	0	1	0	0	9
4	Deeming	2	1	4	0	0	2	0	0	9
5	Hyams	2	2	2	2	0	0	0	1	9
6	Kosminski	2	2	1	2	1	0	0	0	8
7	Pizer	2	2	1	0	2	1	0	0	8
8	Grainger	2	1	2	0	1	1	0	1	8
9	GSC Lechmere	2	2	2	0	0	1	0	1	8
10	Chapman	2	2	1	0	1	0	1	0	7
11	Tumblety	1	1	0	0	2	2	1	0	7
12	Barnado	2	2	0	1	0	1	1	0	7
13	G. Wentworth Bell Smith	2	2	0	1	0	2	0	0	7
14	Cohen	2	2	1	1	0	1	0	0	7
15	Thompson	2	2	0	0	0	1	1	0	6
16	Levy	2	2	0	1	0	0	1	0	6
17	Druitt	2	1	0	1	1	0	0	0	5
18	Barnett	2	2	0	0	0	1	0	0	5
19	Stephenson	2	1	0	0	0	0	1	1	5
20	Stephen	2	1	0	1	0	0	0	0	4
21	Bachert	2	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	4
22	Cross	2	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	4
23	Hardiman	2	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	4
24	Hutchinson	2	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	4
25	Mann	2	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	4
26	Maybrick	2	1	0	0	0	0	0	1	4
27	Sickert	2	0	0	0	0	1	0	0	3
28	Gull	0	1	0	0	0	0	1	0	2

[John Wheat]

Its a shame you feel that way john , I dont mind anyone finding my post amusing ,just dont insult my opinions or intelligents or the right to respond with evidence that backs up my findings . I said it before, when the evidence contradicts a posters theory, thats when people get nasty . Some more so than others.

I don't believe I have insulted your opinions or intelligence or the right to respond Fishy. I agree with your point about people getting nasty when evidence contradicts a posters theory. The Lechmerians being a prime example of this generally. Anyway I don't wish to derail the thread.

Cheers John

[FISHY1118]

I’ll request again that you provide the evidence for that because I’ve looked…nothing.

Just checked again….nothing.

Stop looking, you know what you said and the context you said in . Move on .

[FISHY1118]

How surprising. Fishy and The Baron don’t have a single person supporting their position on Gull and Druitt or the fairness of the suspects table. Just the two of them

It doesnt matter whether others support Gull or not Herlock , were merely pointing out, and giving evidence as to why we believe a flaw in your scoring sysem exist as we see it in regards to certain suspects , druitt and sickert included . Naturally you dont like it [ nothing new there ] and you become offensive towards anyone who opposes this .

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff

On another note I sought the opinion of a master butcher/slaughterman his statement is set out below

I would probably be able to facilitate the removal of the organs but I would need there to be sufficient light and it would need to be a controlled situation and time would be needed to complete the removal. In removing a uterus from a human body I would not need to take out the intestines, as I know the uterus sits in the lower abdomen. I would not be able to use a six-inch bladed knife to remove the kidney.

I have also been asked whether I could carefully remove these same organs in almost total darkness using a six-inch sharp-bladed knife. If I were to attempt these removals from a human body in almost total darkness I would encounter many problems. The first would be the need for a big enough incision for me to be able to gain access to the stomach. The second would be trying to locate the organs, which would be wet and slippery and covered with blood from the abdomen.
This in itself would cause great difficulty in gripping them sufficiently to be able to remove them carefully. I would also not want to be working with a sharp knife in an abdomen not being able to see what I was doing or where my fingers were with where I was attempting to cut. I would also say that I would find it difficult to work with a long-bladed knife and could not remove a kidney using a six-inch bladed knife. If I were in a hurry to remove a kidney and were able to find the renal fat, which encases the kidney, then I would be able to grip it and rip it out by hand.

I was trying to be subjective in my post, but that doesn't detract from my long-standing belief that JTR did not remove any organs from the victims at the crime scenes.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

I suspect what a serial killer can do, and what a sane person believes they can do, are not quite the same. Also, the exact lighting conditions are unknown to us. We do have Dr. Sequeria (sp?) saying that the location where Eddowes was found was the darkest corner of the square, but he also says that there was sufficient light for the offender, so it wasn't total darkness. The above butcher seems to describing a situation that may not apply. In the Chapman case, we're dealing with some uncertainty as to the time of the crime, but one of the options puts it around 5:25ish, at which point light isn't an issue as there would be dawn light (meaning, the sun is coming up and so there's more natural lighting than at say midnight. I'm not wanting to get into the Chaptman ToD debate here, so I accept that there are those who place the time of the murder much earlier, and if I'm wrong then the point is moot). I suppose, given the descriptions of the Stride crime scene, one could argue the lack of lighting explains the lack of mutilations - he just couldn't see so he left. In the Nichols' case there's no organ removal, just slashing, so that doesn't require light. And in the Kelly case there's the fire, and clearly he did what he did, so there was light enough for that.

I don't think you and I will ever agree with respect to the organ removal in the Chapman and Eddowes case (let alone the Kelly case), which is fine as far as I'm concerned, so I'm not going to enter a debate with you on that. We have different views, and given the case is both unsolved, combined with the fact that we're dealing with a woefully inadequate evidence set, it is for the best that as many options as possible be kept on the table even if everyone at that table doesn't agree. As soon as a possibility gets removed, after all, an investigation runs the risk of failing to follow the correct path, so one has to be very very sure an idea should be set aside before it gets set aside. Personally, I don't think the evidence we have for the JtR cases is sufficient to set very much aside, as I don't think we should ever be "very very sure" of anything. But given that, I approach it as an exercise in ordering the options, which "theory" would I put my resources into because they seem more likely to produce results, and which would I limit to "well go ahead but until you find me something, you are on your own, but produce and I'll provide you with an assistant to help if it looks promising" - meaning, which theories are not off the table, but all the same appear to be playing the "long odds". I've never put forth a suspect, so I'm not sure where I sit at that table. I'm just trying to understand what happened first, and I'm not even sure we can do that!

Basically, I think it is good to get opinions from modern butchers (as you've done above), and so forth, but I rather suspect if you asked the same question of a mutilating serial killer, you would have a good chance of getting a very different answer (although one might question the honesty of such individuals!). Sane people do not really understand just what actions depraved people can do and have done - we have this instinct that prevents us from envisioning ourselves doing these things, but fail to comprehend how someone can act without those instinctive restraints. That's a good thing, by the way.

- Jeff

[FISHY1118]

All that and more is mentioned in my post that you quote. Here it is again.

Here are the opinions of the medical types.

Dr Llewellyn - “some rough anatomical knowledge”

Coroner Baxter - "considerable anatomical skill and knowledge”

Dr Phillips - "seemed to indicate great anatomical knowledge.”

Dr Sequeira - "not possessed of any great anatomical skill"

Dr Brown - “a great deal of knowledge”

Dr Saunders did not think the killer showed anatomical skill.

Dr Bond - "no scientific nor anatomical knowledge" IIRC, Thomas Bond read the reports in the victims, he did not examine the bodies.

If it was a "near certainty that the Ripper had a degree medical skill", then why did so many of the doctors disagree with that opinion?

The assessments of anatomical skill are:
None - Bond, Saunders
Some - Lllewellyn, Sequeira
A lot - Baxter, Brown, Phillips

Another point to consider is that doctors who examined both Torso and Ripper victims thought that the Torso killer showed more anatomical knowledge than the Ripper, but not as much knowledge as a surgeon would have.

Another complication is the Ripper mutilations had an emotional component that seems lacking in the Torso dismemberment. The Torsoman clearly had a lair, so they had more time and better lighting, which would tend towards more consistent actions.

Doctors who examined the Ripper victims disagreed on the level of anatomical knowledge the killer had. We cannot with certainty reach any conclusions about the level of anatomical skill that the killer had.

So the doctors at the time of the ripper murders thought there was some degree of anatomical skill / knowledge .Whats changed ?

[FISHY1118]

Go back and read your post #147. It clearly shows that Herlock did not says Gull's strokes happened during the Ripper murders.

I know what it says [it hasnt changed] , i stand by what it ment .