Rating The Suspects.

[JeffHamm]

If you want to rate the Royal Conspiracy it gets complicated. You have both Sickert and Gull not London, so that should make the location rating for the Conspiracy even worse than for Gull or Sickert separately. And if your theory has Netley doing the killing, it still requires a lot of effort out of an elderly stroke victim.

And, one would probably want to include a negative value for "retracted by source", given Gorman (Knight's primary source for the Royal Conspiracy Theory) admitted it was something he just made up.

- Jeff

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor, good to see you're back.

That's nice to know as my inclination is that suspects with anatomical knowledge are probably better matches, particularly if JtR was searching for specific organs at the time. If, however, he had no particular organ in mind and just took what he found, then the "time to search" consideration doesn't enter into it because he just took what he happened across. As unlikely as it may be to just "happen across a kidney", given it's behind a membrane, under the circumstances JtR wouldn't be exploring through sight but through touch, and feeling something "hard and firm" like a kidney wouldn't be prevented just because visually it is concealed by a membrane.

These are, of course, just lines of thought and certainly not definitive ideas. And regardless of whether or not JtR had the specific intensions of taking any particular organ before the murders, I would be highly surprised if it turned out that JtR did not have some practical experience, however gained, of opening up and exploring the insides of at least animals. And that would provide him with sufficient anatomical knowledge and "skill" (experience) to perform the mutilations as they presented at the crime scene.

I think some "practical skill" but not professionally trained could suggest an explanation for why the medical opinion at the time was so all over the place - some saw the skilled while others saw the amateur aspects of his "ability." But again, that's just one of many possibilities, as with so much JtR.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff

On another note I sought the opinion of a master butcher/slaughterman his statement is set out below

I would probably be able to facilitate the removal of the organs but I would need there to be sufficient light and it would need to be a controlled situation and time would be needed to complete the removal. In removing a uterus from a human body I would not need to take out the intestines, as I know the uterus sits in the lower abdomen. I would not be able to use a six-inch bladed knife to remove the kidney.

I have also been asked whether I could carefully remove these same organs in almost total darkness using a six-inch sharp-bladed knife. If I were to attempt these removals from a human body in almost total darkness I would encounter many problems. The first would be the need for a big enough incision for me to be able to gain access to the stomach. The second would be trying to locate the organs, which would be wet and slippery and covered with blood from the abdomen.
This in itself would cause great difficulty in gripping them sufficiently to be able to remove them carefully. I would also not want to be working with a sharp knife in an abdomen not being able to see what I was doing or where my fingers were with where I was attempting to cut. I would also say that I would find it difficult to work with a long-bladed knife and could not remove a kidney using a six-inch bladed knife. If I were in a hurry to remove a kidney and were able to find the renal fat, which encases the kidney, then I would be able to grip it and rip it out by hand.

I was trying to be subjective in my post, but that doesn't detract from my long-standing belief that JTR did not remove any organs from the victims at the crime scenes.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Geddy2112]

On another note I sought the opinion of a master butcher/slaughterman his statement is set out below

Apologies for the very slight detour, can I ask your opinion here https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...ctims-injuries from what you have found out.. thank you kindly.

Sorry back to the...

[Trevor Marriott]

Apologies for the very slight detour, can I ask your opinion here https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...ctims-injuries from what you have found out.. thank you kindly.

Sorry back to the...

I have replied to you on your original thread

[FISHY1118]

Simply untrue. I spent post after post asking for responses and explanations which I wouldn’t have had to do if you had answered questions.

True . Which you got , you just ignored them when they didtn fit your narrative .

[FISHY1118]

Try reading Fishy. His son-in-law…..never wholly recovered.

or….. “he had the attack in Scotland mentioned here and from which TD Acland said that he never wholly recovered (10 months before the murders remember) and then he had 2 more resulting in his death in 1890.“

1 + 2 = 3.

Again, Your accepting on piece of evidence as factual over another that you cant say is not! . This is where your problem is Herlock, you simply ignore evidence that makes your argument less effective and most times contradictory, yet you believe it to be tru . You do it all the time .

Try Reading again.

'While enjoying himself in Scotland he was seized with ''SLIGHT'' paralysis the right side in october 1887. He recovered in ''Great Measure'' and returned to London''.

[FISHY1118]

Prove it.

Why ? You only deny it .

[FISHY1118]

You are accusing Fiver of using a tactic that you’ve regularly employed on here Fishy.

I dont use tactics and or word games herlock ,your the expert there .

[FISHY1118]

No. You have produced nothing. Ever.

Richardson and JfK threads say otherwise ....... Another Herlock misconception [ there adding up ]

[FISHY1118]

I started this thread for one reason only. To assess suspect-types in line with certain criteria. That’s all. But it’s been derailed by two people who cannot get past their own biases and personal dislikes.

Thread ruined. Well done Fishy and The Baron.

So now you play the '' hard done by card ' ? gimmi a break herlock , if youd let baron and myself have a genuine opinion without going off the deep end because you dont agree it, them perhaps your threads wouldnt turn to shite like they do . It is you who should take the blame for that .

[FISHY1118]

I agree. It's a shame Herlock. I have nothing against The Baron or Fishy mind. Ive found some of there comments about the non suspect Lechmere amusing in the past.

Its a shame you feel that way john , I dont mind anyone finding my post amusing ,just dont insult my opinions or intelligents or the right to respond with evidence that backs up my findings . I said it before, when the evidence contradicts a posters theory, thats when people get nasty . Some more so than others.

[FISHY1118]

Go back and read your post #147. It clearly shows that Herlock did not says Gull's strokes happened during the Ripper murders.

I know what it says [it hasnt changed] , i stand by what it ment .

[FISHY1118]

All that and more is mentioned in my post that you quote. Here it is again.

Here are the opinions of the medical types.

Dr Llewellyn - “some rough anatomical knowledge”

Coroner Baxter - "considerable anatomical skill and knowledge”

Dr Phillips - "seemed to indicate great anatomical knowledge.”

Dr Sequeira - "not possessed of any great anatomical skill"

Dr Brown - “a great deal of knowledge”

Dr Saunders did not think the killer showed anatomical skill.

Dr Bond - "no scientific nor anatomical knowledge" IIRC, Thomas Bond read the reports in the victims, he did not examine the bodies.

If it was a "near certainty that the Ripper had a degree medical skill", then why did so many of the doctors disagree with that opinion?

The assessments of anatomical skill are:
None - Bond, Saunders
Some - Lllewellyn, Sequeira
A lot - Baxter, Brown, Phillips

Another point to consider is that doctors who examined both Torso and Ripper victims thought that the Torso killer showed more anatomical knowledge than the Ripper, but not as much knowledge as a surgeon would have.

Another complication is the Ripper mutilations had an emotional component that seems lacking in the Torso dismemberment. The Torsoman clearly had a lair, so they had more time and better lighting, which would tend towards more consistent actions.

Doctors who examined the Ripper victims disagreed on the level of anatomical knowledge the killer had. We cannot with certainty reach any conclusions about the level of anatomical skill that the killer had.

So the doctors at the time of the ripper murders thought there was some degree of anatomical skill / knowledge .Whats changed ?

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff

On another note I sought the opinion of a master butcher/slaughterman his statement is set out below

I would probably be able to facilitate the removal of the organs but I would need there to be sufficient light and it would need to be a controlled situation and time would be needed to complete the removal. In removing a uterus from a human body I would not need to take out the intestines, as I know the uterus sits in the lower abdomen. I would not be able to use a six-inch bladed knife to remove the kidney.

I have also been asked whether I could carefully remove these same organs in almost total darkness using a six-inch sharp-bladed knife. If I were to attempt these removals from a human body in almost total darkness I would encounter many problems. The first would be the need for a big enough incision for me to be able to gain access to the stomach. The second would be trying to locate the organs, which would be wet and slippery and covered with blood from the abdomen.
This in itself would cause great difficulty in gripping them sufficiently to be able to remove them carefully. I would also not want to be working with a sharp knife in an abdomen not being able to see what I was doing or where my fingers were with where I was attempting to cut. I would also say that I would find it difficult to work with a long-bladed knife and could not remove a kidney using a six-inch bladed knife. If I were in a hurry to remove a kidney and were able to find the renal fat, which encases the kidney, then I would be able to grip it and rip it out by hand.

I was trying to be subjective in my post, but that doesn't detract from my long-standing belief that JTR did not remove any organs from the victims at the crime scenes.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

I suspect what a serial killer can do, and what a sane person believes they can do, are not quite the same. Also, the exact lighting conditions are unknown to us. We do have Dr. Sequeria (sp?) saying that the location where Eddowes was found was the darkest corner of the square, but he also says that there was sufficient light for the offender, so it wasn't total darkness. The above butcher seems to describing a situation that may not apply. In the Chapman case, we're dealing with some uncertainty as to the time of the crime, but one of the options puts it around 5:25ish, at which point light isn't an issue as there would be dawn light (meaning, the sun is coming up and so there's more natural lighting than at say midnight. I'm not wanting to get into the Chaptman ToD debate here, so I accept that there are those who place the time of the murder much earlier, and if I'm wrong then the point is moot). I suppose, given the descriptions of the Stride crime scene, one could argue the lack of lighting explains the lack of mutilations - he just couldn't see so he left. In the Nichols' case there's no organ removal, just slashing, so that doesn't require light. And in the Kelly case there's the fire, and clearly he did what he did, so there was light enough for that.

I don't think you and I will ever agree with respect to the organ removal in the Chapman and Eddowes case (let alone the Kelly case), which is fine as far as I'm concerned, so I'm not going to enter a debate with you on that. We have different views, and given the case is both unsolved, combined with the fact that we're dealing with a woefully inadequate evidence set, it is for the best that as many options as possible be kept on the table even if everyone at that table doesn't agree. As soon as a possibility gets removed, after all, an investigation runs the risk of failing to follow the correct path, so one has to be very very sure an idea should be set aside before it gets set aside. Personally, I don't think the evidence we have for the JtR cases is sufficient to set very much aside, as I don't think we should ever be "very very sure" of anything. But given that, I approach it as an exercise in ordering the options, which "theory" would I put my resources into because they seem more likely to produce results, and which would I limit to "well go ahead but until you find me something, you are on your own, but produce and I'll provide you with an assistant to help if it looks promising" - meaning, which theories are not off the table, but all the same appear to be playing the "long odds". I've never put forth a suspect, so I'm not sure where I sit at that table. I'm just trying to understand what happened first, and I'm not even sure we can do that!

Basically, I think it is good to get opinions from modern butchers (as you've done above), and so forth, but I rather suspect if you asked the same question of a mutilating serial killer, you would have a good chance of getting a very different answer (although one might question the honesty of such individuals!). Sane people do not really understand just what actions depraved people can do and have done - we have this instinct that prevents us from envisioning ourselves doing these things, but fail to comprehend how someone can act without those instinctive restraints. That's a good thing, by the way.

- Jeff

[FISHY1118]

How surprising. Fishy and The Baron don’t have a single person supporting their position on Gull and Druitt or the fairness of the suspects table. Just the two of them

It doesnt matter whether others support Gull or not Herlock , were merely pointing out, and giving evidence as to why we believe a flaw in your scoring sysem exist as we see it in regards to certain suspects , druitt and sickert included . Naturally you dont like it [ nothing new there ] and you become offensive towards anyone who opposes this .