Team Jack

[Rya]

Yeah, but I don't mean shaky. Clearly he was, and that's understandable. Even if he had no conscience he still has under a lot of stress. It's like there's a point in your development where your growth outstrips your spatial sense, so you literally don't know where the end of your arms are? It's like that, but with a knife. When he uses the tip he's fine. When he works with more of the center, its like he has no idea what the other end of the knife is doing.

Like he's trying to cut her nose off, and he cannot spatially compute that he is going to hit bone with the tip before he gets through the nose. And he evidently works at it a couple of different ways before giving up and just cutting lower on the bridge. Now I'm like that. Granted I haven' tried it on a face, but as an artist and general theater needs provider, I do a ton of work with an exacto or a small dagger. Give me a bread knife and I'm a moron. So a somewhat more severe form of the same familiarity I have with knives is the only thing I have come up with yet that explains the oddities. But it's not perfect, so I''m still looking. For example, when I'm not thinking, I will try to carve a turkey with the tip of the blade. I just automatically do that. I would expect him to do the same, were he like me. But he doesn't. He tries to use the appropriate part of the blade and is just bad at it.

Someone in the anatomical knowledge thread compared it to ripping open a pumpkin to find a puzzle piece. It's not a bad analogy. I would say it's like ripping through the wrapping on a present like a toddler, but then taking meticulous care to remove the toy. Which as anyone who has ever been a child knows, it is possible to just rip a Barbie (or whatever) from the box, twist ties and all. And most kids do. So why didn't he, especially when he clearly had no care for the wrapping? It didn't save time to be that... messy. It certainly did not improve his odds of removing the organs he wanted intact. It's not frenzy. It's just... amateurish. It's like one guy opened these women, and then he stepped aside to let the guy who is good at it remove the organs. Like a dad who lets his son open a deer, but then he steps in to do the actual cleaning.

It's just weird. And fortunately there aren't a lot of comparisons to be made. When it all comes down to it, there are very few serial killers who take internal organs. Externals, yes. Internals not so much. So it's hard to get a feel for whats normal in this situation. But with the few examples we have, it seems odd to even get into the body that way at all. Chikatilo's victim whose uterus he removed evidently looked like an Alien burst from her chest. He literally just stuck his arm in and pulled it out. So clearly the way Jack cut into these women mattered or they would not have been as organized as they were. But not enough to be orderly about it? That's the odd part. The very incision shows that it is important, but the hash he makes of it says it's not.

The whole thing is very contradictory. Something will show skill, but the skill that you presumably have to have in order to have that first skill is apparently missing. Something is important, but it's not. Something is easy, but at the same time difficult. Crap knife skills on the outside, good ones on the inside. Very good spatial awareness in a dark abdominal cavity, very bad spatial awareness on the face. Doesn't bother to cover the victims, but doesn't unclothe them in the one easy way. He cares very much about throat. He cares equally for the uterus. Which is unusual. But one is savage and one is clinical. The women are posed, but not for any ritualistic or even aesthetic purpose. The only things he is consistent about is that he is very good at acquiring and subduing his victim, and he is very good at getting away unnoticed. Everything else is the Tale of Two Jacks. Figuratively if not literally.

I assume you're talking about the Eddowes murder here, and not the others, since we know so much more about what Kate's injuries looked like and how the cuts were actually made.

I think the whole thesis you're working out here about the killer's peculiar aptitude with his weapon(s) is very interesting, and, as I've read previous posts of yours where you've discussed your view of Eddowes's injuries, I'm surprised it hasn't gotten more comment. To some extent, I agree with you, and it conforms to my own view of the killer as a uniquely self-made and self-trained mutilator killer.

On the other hand, I don't know that, with regard to Eddowes, all these external cuts were carelessly sloppy--sloppy yes, but not always carelessly so. And this is where we've disagreed in the past about some of Eddowes's injuries: I think the deep cuts on the inside of each thigh were quite deliberate, you seem to think they were slips; I think the vertical incision in the abdomen gets messy where it ought to, where the combination of clothing, denser subcutaneous tissue, fascia and muscular structures, combined with a rapidly degrading blade edge, all started to defy him. He may have been losing his leverage at this point as well. With respect to the facial mutilations, its true he mucked up severing the nose, but then he makes these oddly neat incisions through the eyelids, which were not sloppy at all. Perhaps he simply had a short fuse--one of those people who has the capacity for detail but who becomes agitated very easily. In any case, we shouldn't say that all of his organ removals were super neat either; the Eddowes' uterus was a pretty clean, if incomplete, piece of work, but the Chapman pseudo-hysterectomy was a big butchery, if in fact it was just the uterus he was after in that case.

I also think your discussion of using knives is interesting, and we probably underestimate the killer's practical skill given the sort of weapons he was confined to using. For me, trying to use a long bladed knife to do something as exact as excising the fundus of a human uterus without damaging the surrounding organs would be a disaster; the longer the blade tip is from my index finger, the less control I have over it. We're told the killer "carefully" removed the left kidney, by which I assume Brown meant that he got it out cleanly and intact; for me, using an eight inch blade for that would be like using a meat cleaver to pop an oyster from its shell.

But I'm not following the significance of this discussion on the "team jack" concept: are you saying that you think two men were doing the mutilations together? Just in Eddowes' case, or in other cases?

[Errata]

I don't see much of a problem, if you think that he either had a vestigial conscience, or a strong desire not to get caught, and so waited until the "need" to kill was overwhelming. It probably affected his control, the way not eating for several days will make a person dive into food with both hands, even though they usually have neat table manners.

Yeah, but I don't mean shaky. Clearly he was, and that's understandable. Even if he had no conscience he still has under a lot of stress. It's like there's a point in your development where your growth outstrips your spatial sense, so you literally don't know where the end of your arms are? It's like that, but with a knife. When he uses the tip he's fine. When he works with more of the center, its like he has no idea what the other end of the knife is doing.

Like he's trying to cut her nose off, and he cannot spatially compute that he is going to hit bone with the tip before he gets through the nose. And he evidently works at it a couple of different ways before giving up and just cutting lower on the bridge. Now I'm like that. Granted I haven' tried it on a face, but as an artist and general theater needs provider, I do a ton of work with an exacto or a small dagger. Give me a bread knife and I'm a moron. So a somewhat more severe form of the same familiarity I have with knives is the only thing I have come up with yet that explains the oddities. But it's not perfect, so I''m still looking. For example, when I'm not thinking, I will try to carve a turkey with the tip of the blade. I just automatically do that. I would expect him to do the same, were he like me. But he doesn't. He tries to use the appropriate part of the blade and is just bad at it.

Someone in the anatomical knowledge thread compared it to ripping open a pumpkin to find a puzzle piece. It's not a bad analogy. I would say it's like ripping through the wrapping on a present like a toddler, but then taking meticulous care to remove the toy. Which as anyone who has ever been a child knows, it is possible to just rip a Barbie (or whatever) from the box, twist ties and all. And most kids do. So why didn't he, especially when he clearly had no care for the wrapping? It didn't save time to be that... messy. It certainly did not improve his odds of removing the organs he wanted intact. It's not frenzy. It's just... amateurish. It's like one guy opened these women, and then he stepped aside to let the guy who is good at it remove the organs. Like a dad who lets his son open a deer, but then he steps in to do the actual cleaning.

It's just weird. And fortunately there aren't a lot of comparisons to be made. When it all comes down to it, there are very few serial killers who take internal organs. Externals, yes. Internals not so much. So it's hard to get a feel for whats normal in this situation. But with the few examples we have, it seems odd to even get into the body that way at all. Chikatilo's victim whose uterus he removed evidently looked like an Alien burst from her chest. He literally just stuck his arm in and pulled it out. So clearly the way Jack cut into these women mattered or they would not have been as organized as they were. But not enough to be orderly about it? That's the odd part. The very incision shows that it is important, but the hash he makes of it says it's not.

The whole thing is very contradictory. Something will show skill, but the skill that you presumably have to have in order to have that first skill is apparently missing. Something is important, but it's not. Something is easy, but at the same time difficult. Crap knife skills on the outside, good ones on the inside. Very good spatial awareness in a dark abdominal cavity, very bad spatial awareness on the face. Doesn't bother to cover the victims, but doesn't unclothe them in the one easy way. He cares very much about throat. He cares equally for the uterus. Which is unusual. But one is savage and one is clinical. The women are posed, but not for any ritualistic or even aesthetic purpose. The only things he is consistent about is that he is very good at acquiring and subduing his victim, and he is very good at getting away unnoticed. Everything else is the Tale of Two Jacks. Figuratively if not literally.

[RivkahChaya]

It doesn't bother me that none of these murders were witnessed, for example. That I understand. I don't understand the dichotomy between knife skills and a lack control.

I don't see much of a problem, if you think that he either had a vestigial conscience, or a strong desire not to get caught, and so waited until the "need" to kill was overwhelming. It probably affected his control, the way not eating for several days will make a person dive into food with both hands, even though they usually have neat table manners.

[lynn cates]

no agreement

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

Actually, even THAT cannot be agreed upon. Was he on the east or west side of Berner?

Sorry squire. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Lynn and all.

Sorry for delay. Gots questions about Pipeman location? Gotta go to work so later. Where was Pipeman? It on a map would be super-sweet. Wink wink nudge nudge.

[lynn cates]

block

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

Very well. But an entire city block?

Cheers.
LC

[Errata]

Let's be honest - speculation based on hypothesis based on...

We don't even know, from Schwartz' confused testimony that the two men were connected. I doubt even Schwartz could have been sure.

Yet now we have them as a pair working in tandem.

Go back three decades, of course, and you have Stephen Knight identifying them as Anderson, Gull, Netley, Sickert....

Nothing new and no more true now than then... Sorry

Phil

I figure there are three ways to approach a case such as this.

1: We can look at the facts we have at hand and try to formulate a case based on that alone. And we have many people doing that. I can't add to that really unless I can trot out some piece of knowledge that was previously useless to add to the conversation. It is simple reasoning, and whether a person tries inductive, reductive, or deductive, they are only operating within the known.

2: We can try to add to the facts at hand through research and adding context. We can find new information on the case, or possibly find new information on the players. For example if we discovered that Kosminski had a crippling knee injury, that would change things. I'm not in a position to do such research. Londoners have a distinct advantage in this arena, and besides there are plenty of people here who are a lot better at that than I am.

3: We can look at a problem and figure out what solves that problem. Then go back and see if it can apply to the case. I call it the experimental method, or the "throw something at the wall and see if it sticks" method.
And there are problems with this case, or "mysteries" if you will. I do a lot of experiments. My fiance is sick and tired of having to play victim for various attacks, anytime we buy a chicken you don't want to know what it goes through before it gets cooked... and I've taken some good shots and bruised and bled in the course of it (not intentionally, stray elbow encounters). I try things. I experiment.

It doesn't bother me that none of these murders were witnessed, for example. That I understand. I don't understand the dichotomy between knife skills and a lack control. What explains that to me is that the killer was using a longer knife than he was used to. That idea stuck to the wall. In this thread, I'm exploring the mystery of how none of these women were able to fight to any degree to even scuff the dirt. I've explored drugging, strangulation, chloroform, chemical exposure, blows to the head, blows to the solar plexus... none of those stuck to the wall. So I'm down to multiple attackers, or possibly a punch in the throat, but I think a crushed larynx would rate a mention in the autopsy.

If I can make two killers work, in the land of hypothesis, then I can apply it back to the case and see if it fits. If it doesn't, next idea. Whatever the next idea may be.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Lynn.

Hello DLDW. But on this scenario, does it give you reason for pause that one partner is near the Nelson, the other back at Commercial?

Cheers.
LC

No, not really. If they had been following her or found her then you send one around from the other direction to scope out what's going on. So you are not surprised by a parade of people or coppers etc. Cover both sides first then engage type thing.

[lynn cates]

frustration

Hello Phil.

"We don't even know, from Schwartz' confused testimony, that the two men were connected. I doubt even Schwartz could have been sure."

Quite. As is evident from Abberline's frustration on trying to ascertain at whom "Lipsky" was shouted. ("Oops, let me ask the chap who made up that story." heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

pincers

Hello DLDW. But on this scenario, does it give you reason for pause that one partner is near the Nelson, the other back at Commercial?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

pithy remark

Hello Martin. Thanks.

"My reluctance to question the veracity of the Maybrick diary can only be put down to something similar to cowardice."

And lack of a pith helmet? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Phil H]

I must confess, between this and the BS Man thread, I am not sure which one I was responding in.

Point taken. Speculate away.

Phil

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Oh Lord Phil H.

What's the title of the thread? Just an exercise. Creating a possible scenario based on the premise of Team Jack. The thread Phil! The thread!

[Phil H]

BSM and Pipe/Knifeman. You have one who engages whilst the other looks out. After the engager has subdued the victim, the lookout moves in for mutilation whilst the engager looks out. Only Stride's throat was slit because the mutilator/Knifeman gave chase to IS to ensure BSM had enough time to dispatch the victim. Knifeman either returns or goes off in another direction. No mutilation because there is too much risk involved. Perhaps only one of them then moved on to murder Eddowes. Maybe BSM. His first solo gig. Then "MJK" is mutilated by both. Not sure about the last two. Gots to think about it.

Let's be honest - speculation based on hypothesis based on...

We don't even know, from Schwartz' confused testimony that the two men were connected. I doubt even Schwartz could have been sure.

Yet now we have them as a pair working in tandem.

Go back three decades, of course, and you have Stephen Knight identifying them as Anderson, Gull, Netley, Sickert....

Nothing new and no more true now than then... Sorry

Phil

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

A possible example of Team Jack.

BSM and Pipe/Knifeman. You have one who engages whilst the other looks out. After the engager has subdued the victim, the lookout moves in for mutilation whilst the engager looks out. Only Stride's throat was slit because the mutilator/Knifeman gave chase to IS to ensure BSM had enough time to dispatch the victim. Knifeman either returns or goes off in another direction. No mutilation because there is too much risk involved. Perhaps only one of them then moved on to murder Eddowes. Maybe BSM. His first solo gig. Then "MJK" is mutilated by both. Not sure about the last two. Gots to think about it.