Team Jack

[Futzbucket]

Lynn, it's not looking good for my concept. The only documentation is what was on Tumblety's actual person upon the time of death, which was written by the nuns that were treating him.

As much as I wish I was on the right track, I still must admit it a ridiculous concept that he brought these jars with him to the hospital. If the jars weren't present, then they wouldn't be documented.

I'm at a loss. The only avenue I can think of is to research into the "Jar" rumor and try to find the earliest mention of it, and see if there's evidence of this rumor evolving. Any other ideas?

[Futzbucket]

Lynn, it seems you're completely correct!

While it seems to be a rather common belief that Tumblety gained police suspicion from attempting to purchase uteri, it seems that the actual file pertaining to Tumblety (if there ever was one) is missing.

So, even if I am correct, it's impossible for me to prove it.

This is definitely something I need to consider more, and thank you for bringing this to my attention.

I did find one report that is claiming, "Francis Tumblety died in St. Louis on May 28th, 1903 at age 73 and was sent to Rochester for burial. His personal belongings included a collection of preserved uteruses in glass jars...", this means there should be documentation. Now...how to track down the document...

[lynn cates]

reports

Hello FB. Thanks.

Glad we agree about the colonel.

"we also have very credible witnesses and police reports showing Tumblety made several attempts at purchasing preserved uteri by attempting to pose as a doctor."

Can you point me to these? I haven't seen them. I take it you are not referring to Wynne Baxter's theory?

Cheers.
LC

[Futzbucket]

"Statistically it's a little frustrating."

I love how you ended your response with this. I completely agree. I believe this is why, after all these years, people are still fascinated with this case. On the surface it appears as a serial killing, but it just doesn't fit what we've learned of serial killers so far. There's some factor that we're missing, that we're unaware of.

There's an unknown element that's changing the rules, which means we must also change the rules until we discover something that fits this behavioral pattern. It truly is a fascinating case.

[Futzbucket]

Errata, I like your thinking. Personally, I never made a fetish connection with the throat, but I did notice there's a fascination with the eyes, at least with Cathrine Eddowes and Mary Jane Kelly.

Ms. Eddowes had the distinctive markings under each eye, that served to draw more focus to her eyes. Ms. Kelly's face was obliterated, but I can't find any mention of any damage to her eyes themselves. It leaves me with the impression that JtR purposely erased everything, except her eyes.

I do admit that I've tried to see her eyes in her discovery photo, and I can't see them, but wouldn't that be something specifically listed in the report?

[Errata]

FB:

you describe a scenario with a murderer and a contractor. Or a murderer and an accomplice. In order for a duo to solve several questions, they have to be full partners, both participating in the murder and mutilation. Either taking turns or both working on the body at once. One of the major oddities in this case is a double fetish. He fetishized the throat, and he fetishized that contents of the abdomen.

In all my research, I have never found another serial killer to have two fetishes.

In all my research I have never found serial killer partners (true partners) who have not included torture and/or rape in the murders they committed.

Statistically it's a little frustrating.

[Futzbucket]

Hello FB. Thanks.

Indeed.

Concerning the uteri story: What of the reputation of the teller of the tale? Have you researched him yet?

Cheers.
LC

That would be a Mr. "Colonel" Dunham, a man who's reputation of honesty was as tarnished as Tumblety's. Not the most credible witness, I know. I agree that this testament alone wouldn't hold water if you threw it in the ocean, but we also have very credible witnesses and police reports showing Tumblety made several attempts at purchasing preserved uteri by attempting to pose as a doctor.

I then asked, "why would Tumblety travel all the way to London to purchase uteri for his collection?", and the closest thing I can surmise is he was too well known in America for anyone to believe he's a doctor. Tumblety discovered people actually believed he was a doctor in London, and they'd actually sell him uteri. He got away with doing this for years, and then one time not only did someone see through his lie, but the man also informed the police and every place in London where one could purchase preserved, human body parts.

What then would be the motive of collecting these parts? Tumblety was a con artist. I liar from head to toe, but he was a darn good liar. He was described by one person as having the ability to charm entire groups of men. Tumblety also was a practicing homosexual, a practice that was very much persecuted at that time.

I say "practicing homosexual", because I don't believe Tumblety was a homosexual. I believe Tumblety was a manipulator, a parasitic liar that survived through lies and manipulation. His "hatred of women", was actually a cover for his inability to manipulate women. He knew how to communicate with men to get what he wanted from them, but he could never figure out women, who always were able to see through his lies much quicker.

His collecting of preserved, female body parts was his attempt to better understand women, for the purpose of learning how to better manipulate them.

[lynn cates]

teller of the tale

Hello FB. Thanks.

Indeed.

Concerning the uteri story: What of the reputation of the teller of the tale? Have you researched him yet?

Cheers.
LC

[Futzbucket]

It's impossible to prove, but what isn't in this case? At some point you just have take a leap and hope what little information we do have is accurate.

Personally, I believe this testimony. Tumblety had a collection. Not just a bunch of something, but he was collecting them. As with any collection, the collector feels a compulsion to organize the collection, and Tumblety did so by social class.

[lynn cates]

"Is it live, or is it . . . ?"

Hello FB. Thanks.

Yes, that's the story.

Problem is: is the story real or manufactured?

Cheers.
LC

[Futzbucket]

Taken from this very website...

"Someone asked why he had not invited some women to his dinner. His face instantly became as black as a thunder-cloud. He had a pack of cards in his hand, but he laid them down and said, almost savagely, 'No, Colonel, I don’t know any such cattle, and if I did I would, as your friend, sooner give you a dose of quick poison than take you into such danger.' He then broke into a homily on the sin and folly of dissipation, fiercely denounced all women and especially fallen women.

He then invited us into his office where he illustrated his lecture so to speak. One side of this room was entirely occupied with cases, outwardly resembling wardrobes. When the doors were opened quite a museum was revealed -- tiers of shelves with glass jars and cases, some round and others square, filled with all sorts of anatomical specimens. The ‘doctor’ placed on a table a dozen or more jars containing, as he said, the matrices (uteri) of every class of women. Nearly a half of one of these cases was occupied exclusively with these specimens.

[lynn cates]

story

Hello FB. Thanks.

Perhaps the main problem with Tumblety and the uteri is to establish the truth of the story about his collection. The story may be apocryphal.

Cheers.
LC

[Futzbucket]

Hello FB.

Well, replace Kelly with Klosowski and you'd be Abberline--almost. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

hehe, thanks. Not for comparing me to Abberline, but for not going out of your way to try to knock my concept.

It is an interesting spin, replacing Kelly with Klosowski, but Klosowski came from a tight family. The kind of control I suspect Tumblety was capable of doing would need someone isolated from such a support system.

[lynn cates]

change

Hello FB.

Well, replace Kelly with Klosowski and you'd be Abberline--almost. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Not so much a timeline Futz as a total fantasy...

All the best

Dave