Team Jack

[Futzbucket]

I've been playing with the concept that JtR was actually more than one person, and I've put together a simple timeline that, I hope, can illustrate how something like this could have occurred.

Tumblety comes to London from America for the purpose of procuring several embalmed uteri for his collection. He is denied this, and this infuriates him (it was a 2-month trip).

James Kelly escapes from the hospital, and begins mugging prostitutes to support himself. Kelly wants to escape to America, but it costs about 40-pounds for the trip.

The two meet in a pub, and bond over their shared hatred of women. They strike a deal; Kelly procures uteri for Tumblety, and Tumblety pays Kelly 20-pounds for each. Tumblety also wants a kidney, for the purpose of estimating the social status of the victim, for the purpose of placing the uterus correctly in his collection (which was organized by social class). Tumblety takes Kelly into his room at a lodging house, sneaking Kelly in and out, perhaps by lighting a candle in a window so to inform Kelly the coast is clear.

Kelly meets his first victim, Mary Ann, but he botches the job. He's only able to make a single gash, and he fails to procure anything, forcing Kelly to come back empty handed. Tumblety threatens to kick Kelly out unless he does a better job.

Kelly meets his second victim, Annie Chapman. He's able to procure a part of the uterus, but he can't find the kidney. Fearing Tumblety won't pay him, and probably kick him out with no money, Kelly steals two rings. Tumblety accepts the uterus, but he refuses to pay Kelly. Tumblety later reads about the missing rings in the paper, and demands Kelly give him the rings, which Tumblety himself pockets.

Kelly tries again, meeting Elizabeth Stride. Kelly is almost caught, and he attempts to flee back to Tumblety, who refuses to allow him inside without the parts. Kelly rushes back out into the streets, where he meets Cathrine Eddows. He's able to procure both the uterus and a kidney, but when he comes back to Tumblety, he sees that Tumblety has decided to shut the doors on Kelly, probably assuming Kelly was caught. Kelly, enraged by this, writes on a wall, "The Jews are not the men who will be blamed for nothing", as a way of telling Tumblety, "if I'm caught, I'm taking you down with me."

Tumblety allows Kelly back inside the next morning, and Kelly tries again, this time meeting Mary Jane. Because Mary Jane had her own place, this allows Kelly time to "work", but this passage of time makes Tumblety assume Kelly was captured. Fearing Kelly will rat on Tumblety, he escapes to Paris with the single uterus, leaving his doctor's bag behind. Kelly comes back and Tumblety isn't there to let him in. Kelly barges in himself, alerting the night watchman of the house to his presence, and Kelly discovers Tumblety has fled. Knowing Tumblety planned to make his escape to America from Paris, Kelly follows.

Kelly fails to catch Tumblety, who immediately left Paris for America. Knowing Tumblety went to America, Kelly tries to earn the money to follow Tumblety to America, and this takes Kelly almost 2-years to accomplish.

Kelly makes it to America where he kills Carrie Brown as a way of telling Tumblety that he's arrived. Tumblety goes into hiding with his sister, whom Kelly is unaware even exists. Kelly then spends the next 40-years searching for Tumblety.

[Cogidubnus]

Dunno Lynn

Still trying to keep an open mind believe it or not...

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

innocent bystander

Hello Dave. Thanks.

Stopping for a bit of tobacco? Looks like pipe man is an innocent bystander?

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

'Alf ounce of Old 'Olborn please mate

Exactly Lynn, hence my queries regarding the chandlers etc...

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

PM

Hello Dave. Thanks.

No problem with the directions.

In addition to BSM--whom came from at least as far away as Commercial, I'd like to know whence came PM? Surely he wasn't lingering on that corner 3 hours after the pub closed?

Cheers.
LC

[Errata]

But I'm not following the significance of this discussion on the "team jack" concept: are you saying that you think two men were doing the mutilations together? Just in Eddowes' case, or in other cases?

I don't think two men did the mutilations together, but I can see the argument, and It answers some questions. And in all cases, not just Eddowes. I'm not one of those people who thinks that only the theories that ring true with me are going to be the answer. So despite the fact my gut says it was a single killer, I'm exploring the idea that it was two working side by side.

[Cogidubnus]

Perhaps, rather wisely, he wasn`t leading them straight to the front door of his new lodgings.

That's possible I suppose Jon G...

When the Star write, "...and ran him to earth in Backchurch-lane.", are they referring to a new address actually in Backchurch Lane, or is this the Ellen St. address?

Then we read, "...from their lodgings in Berner-street to others in Backchurch-lane.", once again, the question is which one refers to the Ellen St. address?
Ellen St. was at the bottom of Berner St, but across the road, however the postal reference appears to be Backchurch Lane.

Hi Jon S

or maybe the Star was displaying just a modicum of sense by saying only that he'd moved to the Backchurch Lane general area, and not explicitly mentioning Ellen Street...as you say, even Swanson refers to "Helen Street, Backchurch Lane"

Perhaps even, No.22 was reasonably close to Backchurch Lane?

Nothing straightforward!

All the best

Dave

[Jon Guy]

Hi Jon

Perhaps, rather wisely, he wasn`t leading them straight to the front door of his new lodgings.

[Wickerman]

Sounds like he might have fled incontinently past his own dwellings if he reached the railway arch!

Hi Dave.

Thats the real conundrum isn't it.

The address written by Swanson (22 Ellen St. Backchurch Lane), was it Schwartz's former address, or his new address?
Schwartz went to Leman St. on Sunday afternoon, so had his wife managed to make the move over Sat. night, or not?

When the Star write, "...and ran him to earth in Backchurch-lane.", are they referring to a new address actually in Backchurch Lane, or is this the Ellen St. address?

Then we read, "...from their lodgings in Berner-street to others in Backchurch-lane.", once again, the question is which one refers to the Ellen St. address?
Ellen St. was at the bottom of Berner St, but across the road, however the postal reference appears to be Backchurch Lane.

Finally, we appear to have Schwartz running past the Ellen St. address, so where was he headed, if not towards his new lodgings?

Is there anything straight forward in this damn case?

[Cogidubnus]

Incidentally, I just came across an interesting page on the Backchurch Lane area here:-

http://www.stgite.org.uk/media/backchurchlane.html

Fairclough and Berners do get several mentions, and there are pictures too...

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Sorry Lynn, got my compass directions reversed...had just spotted that and was about to correct when the power went off - just our street but a 3 hour plus power cut!

Walking up the West Side, crossing from West to East...I've always assumed from Swanson's account that Pipeman was approaching from the opposite side of the road from Dutfields Yard (ie the East side)...And yes the Nelson was the North West quadrant, the Board School North East.

So James Browns late supper chandlers is presumably one of the Southern quadrants...I was trying to elicit which, so that perhaps we'd have a clue from whence BS appeared? Perhaps he'd been in the shop buying tobacco...

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

directions

Hello Dave.

"I suspect he emerged just as IS was beginning to cross the road diagonally from east to west"

Was it not west to east?

"it might also suggest he fled turning right"

Left perhaps? Would not a right turn lead him straight to PM?

"wasn't the Nelson on the North-East side of the Berners/Fairclough junction (per the map on P125 of CSI Whitechapel anyway) with the Board School on the North-West side."

Other way round. And I believe they closed at 9.30?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

price too high

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

"West side seems logical?"

At one time, that was a given. Only recently have some plumped for the other side.

"I'm not buying IS running all the way from Berner to a railway arch."

And very little else, in my opinion.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Hello Dig

Yes I think it's possible pipeman was on the West side, for the reasons you mention...I suspect he emerged just as IS was beginning to cross the road diagonally from east to west - If Schwartz was a nervous man, this alone may have startled him...it might also suggest he fled turning right (away from BS) down Fairclough Street and Backchurch Lane. Sounds like he might have fled incontinently past his own dwellings if he reached the railway arch!

However, just to confuse things, wasn't the Nelson on the North-East side of the Berners/Fairclough junction (per the map on P125 of CSI Whitechapel anyway) with the Board School on the North-West side. Now vide Brown a chandlers occupied one of the other quadrants - not sure which because although Brown had to cross the road, Im not sure exactly what half of Fairclough Street No 35 was in...anybody know? And was a beerhouse on the remaining corner in 1888?

We don't know that Pipeman was actually Knifeman - that only comes in the Star report and as others have pointed out it might be either a mistranslation or a piece of press spicing-up...on which basis there is surely still the possibility that what Schwartz thought was a pursuer might've been another frightened soul fleeing for his life...

All the best

Dave

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Lynn.

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

Actually, even THAT cannot be agreed upon. Was he on the east or west side of Berner?

Sorry squire. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

West side seems logical? If Pipe/Knifeman was on the East side, the same side as IS, he would have had to have walked/ran right by him. I was wondering how far South of Dutfield's he was? On another thread someone posted a map of the railway arches and they are far away. IS would've turned a few corners and passed his previous residence to get to any of them. I'm not buying IS running all the way from Berner to a railway arch. And no need for the mistranslation arguement people, it has been noted. Hence Pipe/Knifeman. Something that keeps making me laugh is BS man. That really just might be the case. Too much hinky stuff to just dismiss everything. No conclusions though. If IS was telling the truth about what he witnessed, then there is a good possibility he was being chased by a Knifeman. Or at least chased off. Implications for pondering. And if it was a Knifeman then that might explain running so far away.