Team Jack

[caz]

I think "degenerative neurological disorder" s a better explanation. It explains a lot of odd things about he skilled/not skilled problems (although, so probably does the "sometimes he was a lot more drunk than others" theory). I realize that degenerative diseases do not cause a person to become homicidal who otherwise would not have hurt people, but sometimes they destroy the parts of the brain that inhibit behavior, before a person breaks down entirely. It is common for people in the mid-stages of Alzheimer's to go through a very aggressive and combative phase, where they argue a lot, verbally abuse the people taking care of them, and some even become physically abusive, and need to be sedated or restrained.

Hi Rivkah,

I can vouch for this, as my late mother suffered with senile dementia and kicked the driver who came to her nursing home to take her to hospital on the night she died. She clearly didn't want to go anywhere!

I can see how a naturally aggressive person could become dangerously so if the behaviour inhibiting parts of their brain were damaged or destroyed by disease, but I can't see that applying to the ripper because he was well able to 'inhibit' his own behaviour to the extent that nobody ever saw him attack a victim with his knife, which he must only have taken out when the coast was clear and they were in a place where he could cut her throat with no witnesses.

My mother would still have kicked that poor driver in the shins with an audience of thousands.

Love,

Caz
X

[Futzbucket]

Riv, great posts.

I suspect what happened was Tumblety was largely ignored by his parents, and the daughters teamed-up against him at every chance they had. At a young age, Tumblety knew he had to look out for himself, his only tools being his mind, but his sisters would all support each other in thwarting each and every attempt he made at manipulation.

The only one who probably showed him any compassion was Margaret, whom he later moved in with.

As an interesting coincidence, four out of five of the mostly agreed victims share a name with one of his sisters.

[RivkahChaya]

Logically speaking that would seem true, but most boys who suffer abuse at the hands of their mother crave positive female attention their whole life. They don't hate women, they NEED women. They consistently choose to surround themselves with women. Often to the point of ignoring male relationships.

It's not universally true, but it is mostly true. On the other hand, watching significant females in his life be marginalized by men can lead to some profound misogyny.

The most misogynous men tend to be ones whose fathers beat their mothers, and whose mothers stayed in the situation. Men raised by single mothers with deceased or absent fathers sometimes have trouble with relationships only because they didn't have a model, but not because they have ill-regard for women, and that certainly isn't universal, because they can find models elsewhere.

The idea that men who were abused, or at best, "suffocated" by over-bearing mothers grew into women-haters is Freudian, because Freud theorized that this was a recipe for producing homosexuals. It's wrong on the face of it, because homosexual men do not hate women. There's really no relationship between a man's tendency to treat women badly, and his propensity to be sexually attracted to them. But, since no mother is perfect, any gay man who sought to be cured, back before about 1960, when Freudian analysts claimed to be able to do so, spent a lot of time reliving every tiny hurt from their mothers, and this just convinced the analysts they were onto something.

And it's probably true that men who were, in fact badly treated by their mothers continually seek to be "mothered" in their adult relationships. Depending on what that means exactly, and if they are aware that it is happening, it might not be disastrous.

[RivkahChaya]

Yeah, but I don't mean shaky. Clearly he was, and that's understandable. Even if he had no conscience he still has under a lot of stress. It's like there's a point in your development where your growth outstrips your spatial sense, so you literally don't know where the end of your arms are?

I think "degenerative neurological disorder" s a better explanation. It explains a lot of odd things about he skilled/not skilled problems (although, so probably does the "sometimes he was a lot more drunk than others" theory). I realize that degenerative diseases do not cause a person to become homicidal who otherwise would not have hurt people, but sometimes they destroy the parts of the brain that inhibit behavior, before a person breaks down entirely. It is common for people in the mid-stages of Alzheimer's to go through a very aggressive and combative phase, where they argue a lot, verbally abuse the people taking care of them, and some even become physically abusive, and need to be sedated or restrained.

It's less common for people with conditions like multiple sclerosis to go through phases like this, but it does happen-- probably the frustration of the condition contributes to some people becoming combative. I think this also happened with people as they began tertiary syphilis, just before they began a physical decline that led to death, but I'm really not sure, because tertiary syphilis is so uncommon. I know one person who was a nurse, though, who saw a case in a 12-year-old, who was misdiagnosed with childhood disintegrative disorder, in the 1990s, because it just never occurred to the doctors that anyone, let alone a child, could have advanced syphilis. It was found on autopsy, though, because the child died on a psych ward, and the autopsy was to make sure there had been no physical abuse in the hospital. Anyway, the child was admitted, because the aggressive behavior was out of control.

People who become very abusive or aggressive with something like multiple sclerosis were probably not the most gentle people to begin with-- that is, I don't think MS alters their essential personalities. However, most people who study the Ripper case assume that JtR must have gotten "better" at his crimes. If he was killing vulnerable women on the street, and leaving the corpses why they died, he must never have done anything more sophisticated than that, like more advanced sorts of dissections, killing indoors, and dumping the bodies without detection.

But if he was deteriorating, from anything, and there are a lot of possibilities: Korsakoff's syndrome, drug abuse, a brain tumor, any number of metabolic disorders, or the very rare, inherited, fatal form of insomnia. Some of those things are pretty common, other rare, but altogether, allow for a lot of room to speculate.

It also answers the question regarding the chances the killer took killing in the open in a fairly public place: he may not have had the sense not to. Obviously he had some, because he didn't attack in the middle of the day, but he may not have been very good at risk assessment.

He may have stopped, as well, because he became to debilitated to continue.

I realize that there seems to be a progression toward skill, in that he did more and more with each victim, but we don't really know that, because we don't know for sure that MJK was a victim, or that all his victims were confined to Whitechapel and the area nearby.

[Futzbucket]

Logically speaking that would seem true, but most boys who suffer abuse at the hands of their mother crave positive female attention their whole life. They don't hate women, they NEED women. They consistently choose to surround themselves with women. Often to the point of ignoring male relationships.

It's not universally true, but it is mostly true. On the other hand, watching significant females in his life be marginalized by men can lead to some profound misogyny.

It's times like this I wish more people kept journals. I would love to get my grubby hands on a journal written by one of his sisters, specifically Margaret, whom I suspect was one of the few people who ever really knew Tumblety.

It's an odd choice, I think for a self-confessed hater of women, to decide to live with his sister. Well, not that odd, I guess, being his life was nothing but odd choices.

[Errata]

Interesting psych note; Tumblety was the youngest of eleven children: Patrick, Lawrence, Jane and Bridget (twins), Alice, Margaret, Ann, Julia, Elizabeth, and Mary. His childhood would have been constantly surrounded by women, and according to descriptions of those outside of his family that knew him as a child describe him as a "dirty, awkward, ignorant, uncared-for, good-for-nothing boy... utterly devoid of education." This description speaks of severe neglect.

This abuse he suffered as a child while surrounded by so many women could cause Tumblety to associate negative emotions to women.

Edit: Tumblety, while young, was known to sell dockworkers some type of pornography. If the pictures in question were of his sisters, this would demonstrate dissociation and a lack of empathy for the opposite sex at a young age. If left untreated, could lead to permanent, sociopathic traits toward women.

Logically speaking that would seem true, but most boys who suffer abuse at the hands of their mother crave positive female attention their whole life. They don't hate women, they NEED women. They consistently choose to surround themselves with women. Often to the point of ignoring male relationships.

It's not universally true, but it is mostly true. On the other hand, watching significant females in his life be marginalized by men can lead to some profound misogyny.

[Futzbucket]

Interesting psych note; Tumblety was the youngest of eleven children: Patrick, Lawrence, Jane and Bridget (twins), Alice, Margaret, Ann, Julia, Elizabeth, and Mary. His childhood would have been constantly surrounded by women, and according to descriptions of those outside of his family that knew him as a child describe him as a "dirty, awkward, ignorant, uncared-for, good-for-nothing boy... utterly devoid of education." This description speaks of severe neglect.

This abuse he suffered as a child while surrounded by so many women could cause Tumblety to associate negative emotions to women.

Edit: Tumblety, while young, was known to sell dockworkers some type of pornography. If the pictures in question were of his sisters, this would demonstrate dissociation and a lack of empathy for the opposite sex at a young age. If left untreated, could lead to permanent, sociopathic traits toward women.

[lynn cates]

Baxter

Hello FB. Thanks.

Baxter and his "theory" were rebuffed by the medical community. They, in following up the story, referred its origin to a much earlier date--driving Baxter to wonder if someone had misunderstood and thought they were still valuable.

No known reference to Tumblety--the American doctor was supposedly respectable.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

event

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

The rumour was started a good bit after the "event" described.

Cheers.
LC

[Futzbucket]

The earliest I can find is the testimony of Dunhan, in which Dunham describes Tumblety having a row of dressers against one of his office walls, from which Tumblety allegedly stored his collection.

The connection to Tumblety trying to procure uteri in London seems to have started with Coroner Baxter, upon being asked if there was any value in stealing a uterus, saying that he actually had an American doctor inquire about purchasing some, and when told no, the doctor claimed he would be happy to pay a large sum. When asked why Baxter thought the man wanted the uteri, Baxter made a comment of the man being a "quack". It appears Baxter's intent of saying this wasn't to point fingers at a possible suspect, but to illustrate that there were men out there that would pay for a uterus.

Tumblety was known as the "Prince of Quacks", was known to pose as a doctor, and he was from America. I'm beginning to understand how it was easy to draw a line to Tumblety, but I can't find anything where Baxter gave a name or a description of the man besides "an American doctor". Tumblety was an unique looking individual, so I am finding it hard to understand why Baxter couldn't give a better description.

Also...Dunham's testimony just doesn't fit. Tumblety was a con-man, and as such he traveled quite frequently and would have to be able to leave at a moment's notice, which he was notorious for doing as soon as people started turning against him.

How in the world could Tumblety had gained such a large collection, and be able to travel as he did? The jars wouldn't have to be large, perhaps about a pint, but I'm thinking a dozen of these jars alone would weigh just under 20 lbs. To transport these jars, they would need to be individually wrapped in cloth to prevent breakage, which is very possible to do, but it would take time.

At some point in his exploits he would have been forced to immediately leave town, forcing him to abandon at least most of his collection, which would have then been discovered and documented.

Options:
Dunham lied about the entire encounter.
Dunham exaggerated to the number of jars, and Tumblety actually only had a few.
Tumblety coned him and the rest of his diner guests by showing parts of pigs in jars, claiming they were human for the purpose of further convincing others of his medical knowledge.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Lynn

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

Do you refer to the rumour or the time which the rumour "described"?

Cheers.
LC

Any and all.

[lynn cates]

clarification

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

Do you refer to the rumour or the time which the rumour "described"?

Cheers.
LC

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Question and comment.

Does not the jar "rumour" predate any Ripper business? And who makes up a story about having a bunch of uteri? I could see someone claiming to have a collection, but the random assignation of a collection of uteri to another person seems less likely than someone claiming to have a collection. I go with having one also. My opinion.

[lynn cates]

Mike

Hello (again) FB. Thanks.

"I'm at a loss. The only avenue I can think of is to research into the "Jar" rumor and try to find the earliest mention of it, and see if there's evidence of this rumor evolving."

Excellent idea.

"Any other ideas?"

Well, you might chat up Mike Hawley. He is the resident expert on Tumblety.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

good luck

Hello FB. Thanks.

"This is definitely something I need to consider more, and thank you for bringing this to my attention."

My pleasure.

Good luck with research.

Cheers.
LC