Stride..a victim?

[Herlock Sholmes]

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Frank and some others already know this, but just in case it hasn't sunk in; if it is believed that Smith last went through Berner street at 12:30-12:35, he must reach the yard at close to 1am, and no more than a few minutes past - because his beat takes 25-30 minutes - and therefore Diemschitz cannot possibly have seen the clock at the top of the street saying 1:00

1. If Smith passed the clock at just after 1.00, as you've accepted above, and Diemschutz passed it at 1.00 where is the issue?

2. Despite the fact that routes were regulated what's to say that Smith didn't have to deal with some kind of incident on his route which slightly delayed his return to Berner Street?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Herlock,

I agree that, as far as the math goes, Smith was correct, as he knew his round would take him 25 to 30 minutes from start to finish. So, if he was close to the club at 12:30-12:35, then he must have been at the top of Berner Street some 25 minutes later. Or the other way around, if he was at the top of Berner Street around 1 am, then he must have been passing the yard at 12:30 to 12:35.

Frank and some others already know this, but just in case it hasn't sunk in; if it is believed that Smith last went through Berner street at 12:30-12:35, he must reach the yard at close to 1am, and no more than a few minutes past - because his beat takes 25-30 minutes - and therefore Diemschitz cannot possibly have seen the clock at the top of the street saying 1:00.

Furthermore, if both Smith and Diemschitz had a visual line to that clock, and Smith's times are believed, then Diemschitz was either badly mistaken, or lying.

Then one has to consider that guys like Kozebrodsky and Heshburg are claiming to get to the yard at around 12:40 or very soon after 12:45.
Both estimates, yes, but harder to shake off if Diemschitz 1am claim is not believed.

But the thing is - for me at least - that if you start counting back from Blackwell's timing (who checked his watch when he arrived in the yard), then you end up with Smith arriving at the crime scene close to 1:10 am. Having him arrive there at 1:02-1:03, to me, seems like a rather long stretch. And besides, as I've said before, if Smith really was at the top of Berner Street at around 1 a.m., then why didn't Eagle find him instead of Lamb and why didn't he see PC 426 H going for Dr. Blackwell, whose house was at the top of Batty Street?

Possibly because the timings are a couple of minutes apart - either side of 1am.

Between about 1 am and 1:16, when Blackwell arrives at the scene:
- Diemshutz discovers the body
- Diemshutz & Kozebrodski/Isaacs go searching for a PC running along Fairclough Street
- Diemshutz returns to the yard with Spooner
- Eagle goes searching for a PC in the direction of Commercial Street and finds PC Henry Lamb & PC 426 H
- The PC's arrive at the crime scene after Diemshutz & Spooner arrive
- Lamb after seeing the severity of the situations send PC 426 H to get the doctor and Eagle to get the Inspector at the Leman Street station
- Lamb then blows his whistle for additional assistance
- PC 12 H, Albert Collins, responds to the whistle
- Then Smith arrives and sees 2 constables (Lamb & Collins)
- After what seems to be a very short while Smith is sent for the ambulance
- As he leaves the scene, Edward Johnson, Blackwell's assistant, arrives with PC 426 H at the yard

So maybe Blackwell's watch was some 6 or 7 minutes ahead of the clock in Commercial Road, but that would push back the discovery of the body by some 6 or 7 minutes, too.

All the best,
Frank

Spooner meets Mr Harris on his way to the yard, the latter having gone outside after hearing a police whistle.
Spooner observes the deceased and then waits for about 5 minutes before Lamb arrives with 426H.
This is highly anomalous.

I believe 426H is William Ayliffe.

We have Eagle's arrival time at the station. Irish Times, Oct 1:

The information of the crime reached Leman street Police Station at ten minutes past 1 o'clock, and Dr. Phillips, of 2 Spital square, the divisional police surgeon, was immediately communicated with.

[Michael W Richards]

But she had something to say about timings.

William West contributed nothing to do with how she died but he was called. Likewise Eagle. And Spooner. And Tanner. And Lane. And Preston....all called.

If Wess establishes a virtually empty street how many witnesses do we need in corroboration? If the reason Diemshutz was allowed to lay down his version unchallenged is that they believed him, then all that is needed established is who else was around before Louis. Morris and Lave do that. Fanny would just be another witness who says she saw no-one. Even Goldstein isnt really necessary, they knew before the Inquest that Liz saw someone pass the gates, not enter or leave through them.

I for one think that Louis lied, and maybe to quell any possible persecution retaliation from locals, they probably knew that and put him out there anyway. I also believe they really didnt find any evidence that Liz was on the street with 3 other people in a very brief interlude of heightened street activity around 12:45. The way its laid out for the public is that Wess establishes background for the site and a preliminary view. The intermediary view is given by Lave and Eagle...nothing going on, no-one around,...then Louis arrives and all hell breaks loose. Wess, Eagle, then Louis.

I believe the reality was that Louis arrived much earlier than he said he did, that Fanny was in one of her "off" moments, and that the bulk of what the majority of witnesses from the scene of the crime about times and actions is essentially truthful. I believe Issac K was sent out by himself around 12:40-45, because he says he was. I believe 3 witnesses who say they were by the body at around the same time as Issac K says he was. I think the reason Louis gave his story because the reality was he didnt have a formulated response to this kind of crisis, and he needed some time to think. He left for help after 1, sure, the rest of that falls into place with the comings of the officials and their times,.. but he waited for perhaps 15-20 minutes before doing it. Its why Eagle cannot outright state that Liz wasnt there when he arrived. He knew better, and lots of witnesses did too. "Couldnt be sure". Take a look at how wide that passageway was and when he says he stayed close to the wall when he went in...is it even possible that he could miss discovering LIz there? I dont see it.

Would Louis alter some details if it allowed the Club to dodge suspicions and to keep quiet the delay in his personally acting in response to the crime? I believe so. Would a theatrical friend of the club and Wess's help out by making a statement claiming she was seen being attacked off the property....sure. Why not. Could it hurt inserting a suggestion that the assailant was a anti-Semite? Might help actually. Maybe looked like he was trying to set them up by killing there.

The real bottom line on this issue is this......there are groups of witnesses that match times in their statements, there is another group that do not, nor do they corroborate each others statements, you have to choose. There will be no great reveal someday on this crime, you get what you got. You have to stand by one group or the other, and use evidence to make a case. No imagined interruptions unless warranted by the evidence, and thats not the lack of any.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Caz,

If Schwartz had felt threatened by his encounter with BS Man and Pipeman might he not just have layed low at a friend's house or somewhere out of town until it all died down?

If Schwartz, wife, and people at friend's house, kept Israel out of sight 'until it all died down', we would have a conspiracy.

Would suggesting this possibility therefore make you a Conspiracy Theorist?

[Herlock Sholmes]

How many more excuses are going to be made for this bloke?

Is there any other witness or suspect in this case who benefits from continual excuse making, to anything like the extent that Schwartz does?

What would happen if everyone in this forum stopped making excuses for Israel Schwartz?

Was Philip Sugden an excuse maker? Or Paul Begg or Martin Fido? No? What these knowledgeable writers also aren't (in common with most Ripperologists) is conspiracy theorists. People for whom every error, discrepancy, disagreement or omission is a sign of something sinister. This kindergarten approach does the subject no favours especially when selectivity is used to bolster those theories (like the convenient omission of Fanny Mortimer's version of events in the Evening News.) A woman who also wasn't called to the Inquest by the way despite the fact that she could confirm the time that the body was discovered and (at least partially) confirm the time of Diemschutz arrival not to mention who was around in the street and the yard at the time of the discovery of the body. Perhaps she'd seen a high ranking Freemason at the scene? Or perhaps the police were worried that the man with the bag was actually was Prince Eddy?

So what's being used to show that Schwartz was a fantasist? That no one else saw the BS Man/ Pipeman incident? An incident that might have taken as little as 30 seconds in a pretty deserted street? Apparently we can dismiss Mortimer explaining in detail what she'd done (where it's likely that she was inside when Schwartz passed) in favour of a general statement where she said that she was on her doorstep pretty much the whole time from 12.30 until 1.00. Selectivity rules.

And so we have the 'fantasist' Schwartz who was so unbelievable that the police arrested a man on the strength of what he'd told them? He lied about being in a street that he'd every reason to walk down at that time just so that he could place himself at the scene of a brutal murder that was bound to be at least considered as a ripper murder. Risking just one person claiming to have been at the scene at that time or leaving a pub or a house leaving Schwartz firmly in suspect territory. Yes he didn't appear at the Inquest. So yes the police might have lost faith in him (it still doesn't make him wrong or a liar) or, as Sugden says, there might have been another explanation. As I suggested in an earlier post perhaps he was scared that BS Man or Pipeman might seek him out and so he did a runner until things died down. Nothing 'proves' Schwartz a liar. It doesn't mean he couldn't have lied of course but nothing approaches proving it. But that's the difference between a reasoned approach and conspiracy thinking isn't it?

With so many unknowns and discrepancies conspiracy thinking will remain the curse of any true crime. Again i'll stress just so that I'm clear I'm not saying that people don't lie or conspire or cover things up and there may have been some of that in this case. I don't know. But we shouldn't keep assuming it when a reasonable, rational explanation exists. We're all familiar with Sagan's "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." What's being presented in favour of Schwartz lying isn't extraordinary. It's not even strong. It's disputed and debatable and is being presented by some with breathtaking over-confidence.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Caz,

If Schwartz had felt threatened by his encounter with BS Man and Pipeman might he not just have layed low at a friend's house or somewhere out of town until it all died down?

How many more excuses are going to be made for this bloke?

Is there any other witness or suspect in this case who benefits from continual excuse making, to anything like the extent that Schwartz does?

What would happen if everyone in this forum stopped making excuses for Israel Schwartz?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

If Schwartz fled 'incontinently' from the scene, he was arguably terrified when he learned the woman had been murdered shortly after his departure. For all he knew, Pipeman and BS Man could have been in cahoots, and one or both could be after his own blood if he turned up at the inquest.

As neither of these men were ever identified by the police, their very existence is in doubt.
Without at least proving that both men existed, let alone their actions on Berner street that night, the excuse Schwartz gave for fleeing the scene is null and void.
Having placed himself at the scene of the crime, and close in time to it's occurrence, and having subsequently identified the victim at the mortuary, it is not valid for Schwartz to rationalize his own running away from that scene, by conjuring up a pursuer.
The pursuer must be identified, otherwise Schwartz' behaviour must be regarded as suspicious.

Would he have been forced to attend, if there were genuine concerns about his and his family's safety if he did so? I don't know the answer, I'm merely curious.

If he is called to the inquest - which he surely was - he is legally obliged to attend.
If there were concerns over safety, there is a mechanism for dealing with this - appearance in camera.
There is no evidence that this mechanism was used, and therefore it is highly likely that Israel Schwartz dodged the inquest.
If every witness called to an inquest or court case could simply refuse to turn up on safety grounds, the entire legal system would pretty much collapse.

Given that Schwartz was happy to give an anonymous interview to the Star, the day after the murder, Schwartz himself could hardly have too many concerns about his or his family's (assuming there was one) safety - an anonymous daytime interview by a newspaper reporter, on a Whitechapel street, is hardly a high-security arrangement - either physically or in privacy terms. Compare that to an in camera appearance at an inquest, with the sort of protection available as was placed around Lawende, and any excuse for Schwartz' non-attendance simply evaporates.

But the idea that he saw nothing and nobody, because he wasn't there, and lied through his teeth as part of some unlikely conspiracy to cover for the club members, is not something I could entertain without some really strong evidence. If that's why he didn't attend the inquest, because the police had reason to believe he'd made the whole thing up, he'd have been facing a tougher interrogation than Hutchinson did.

This depends on what you mean by 'the police'. Does it mean the Met, H-division, Leman street, or Scotland Yard?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi HS,
I think PC Smith is (not so) simply saying that he arrived back at the top of Berner Steeet by following his beat as normal, rather than being attracted there by whistles or shouts.



This seems to be an error, most reports have Blackwell saying he arrived at 1:16

Thanks Joshua.

Both seem the likeliest explanations.

[Joshua Rogan]

At the the Inquest Smith said " At 1 o clock I went to Berner Street in my ordinary round." This is a strange way of putting it. It sounds like he's saying - 'I was somewhere else then at 1.00 I went to Berner Street.'

Hi HS,
I think PC Smith is (not so) simply saying that he arrived back at the top of Berner Steeet by following his beat as normal, rather than being attracted there by whistles or shouts.

Blackwell's Inquest testimony doesn't add up though. How could he have been called to Berner Street by a PC at 1.10 then after getting dressed and walking to Dutfield's Yard he manages to arrive at just 1.10.

This seems to be an error, most reports have Blackwell saying he arrived at 1:16

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

I agree that, as far as the math goes, Smith was correct, as he knew his round would take him 25 to 30 minutes from start to finish. So, if he was close to the club at 12:30-12:35, then he must have been at the top of Berner Street some 25 minutes later. Or the other way around, if he was at the top of Berner Street around 1 am, then he must have been passing the yard at 12:30 to 12:35.

But the thing is - for me at least - that if you start counting back from Blackwell's timing (who checked his watch when he arrived in the yard), then you end up with Smith arriving at the crime scene close to 1:10 am. Having him arrive there at 1:02-1:03, to me, seems like a rather long stretch. And besides, as I've said before, if Smith really was at the top of Berner Street at around 1 a.m., then why didn't Eagle find him instead of Lamb and why didn't he see PC 426 H going for Dr. Blackwell, whose house was at the top of Batty Street?

Between about 1 am and 1:16, when Blackwell arrives at the scene:
- Diemshutz discovers the body
- Diemshutz & Kozebrodski/Isaacs go searching for a PC running along Fairclough Street
- Diemshutz returns to the yard with Spooner
- Eagle goes searching for a PC in the direction of Commercial Street and finds PC Henry Lamb & PC 426 H
- The PC's arrive at the crime scene after Diemshutz & Spooner arrive
- Lamb after seeing the severity of the situations send PC 426 H to get the doctor and Eagle to get the Inspector at the Leman Street station
- Lamb then blows his whistle for additional assistance
- PC 12 H, Albert Collins, responds to the whistle
- Then Smith arrives and sees 2 constables (Lamb & Collins)
- After what seems to be a very short while Smith is sent for the ambulance
- As he leaves the scene, Edward Johnson, Blackwell's assistant, arrives with PC 426 H at the yard

So maybe Blackwell's watch was some 6 or 7 minutes ahead of the clock in Commercial Road, but that would push back the discovery of the body by some 6 or 7 minutes, too.

All the best,
Frank

Hi Frank,

At the the Inquest Smith said " At 1 o clock I went to Berner Street in my ordinary round." This is a strange way of putting it. It sounds like he's saying - 'I was somewhere else then at 1.00 I went to Berner Street.'

Might he not have got there at just after 1.05 say? He also said " Dr Blackwell's assistant came just as I was going away." Johnston said that he got to the scene at 5 or 10 past.

Blackwell's Inquest testimony doesn't add up though. How could he have been called to Berner Street by a PC at 1.10 then after getting dressed and walking to Dutfield's Yard he manages to arrive at just 1.10.

Dr Blackwell or Dr Who?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Israels story is in no way attached to the formal Inquest, and by that omission one can safely assume that his story could not be proven, or was proven to be false. So.... why are you using him?

Well if that is the criteria we should go by then why do you put so much faith in Fanny's story? It seems you are trying to have it both ways.

c.d.

Exactly c.d. It appears that St Fanny is immune from criticism.

[FrankO]

If Smith originally passed the scene between 12.30 and 12.35, as he'd said, wouldn't this just mean that before he appeared in Dutfield's Yard he'd done another circuit of his beat Frank?

If this was the case then wouldn't this strengthen Smith's statement that he originally passed at 12.30/5 as a half an hour circuit would return him to the scene at just the right time?

Hi Herlock,

I agree that, as far as the math goes, Smith was correct, as he knew his round would take him 25 to 30 minutes from start to finish. So, if he was close to the club at 12:30-12:35, then he must have been at the top of Berner Street some 25 minutes later. Or the other way around, if he was at the top of Berner Street around 1 am, then he must have been passing the yard at 12:30 to 12:35.

But the thing is - for me at least - that if you start counting back from Blackwell's timing (who checked his watch when he arrived in the yard), then you end up with Smith arriving at the crime scene close to 1:10 am. Having him arrive there at 1:02-1:03, to me, seems like a rather long stretch. And besides, as I've said before, if Smith really was at the top of Berner Street at around 1 a.m., then why didn't Eagle find him instead of Lamb and why didn't he see PC 426 H going for Dr. Blackwell, whose house was at the top of Batty Street?

Between about 1 am and 1:16, when Blackwell arrives at the scene:
- Diemshutz discovers the body
- Diemshutz & Kozebrodski/Isaacs go searching for a PC running along Fairclough Street
- Diemshutz returns to the yard with Spooner
- Eagle goes searching for a PC in the direction of Commercial Street and finds PC Henry Lamb & PC 426 H
- The PC's arrive at the crime scene after Diemshutz & Spooner arrive
- Lamb after seeing the severity of the situations send PC 426 H to get the doctor and Eagle to get the Inspector at the Leman Street station
- Lamb then blows his whistle for additional assistance
- PC 12 H, Albert Collins, responds to the whistle
- Then Smith arrives and sees 2 constables (Lamb & Collins)
- After what seems to be a very short while Smith is sent for the ambulance
- As he leaves the scene, Edward Johnson, Blackwell's assistant, arrives with PC 426 H at the yard

So maybe Blackwell's watch was some 6 or 7 minutes ahead of the clock in Commercial Road, but that would push back the discovery of the body by some 6 or 7 minutes, too.

All the best,
Frank

[Herlock Sholmes]

If Schwartz fled 'incontinently' from the scene, he was arguably terrified when he learned the woman had been murdered shortly after his departure. For all he knew, Pipeman and BS Man could have been in cahoots, and one or both could be after his own blood if he turned up at the inquest. Would he have been forced to attend, if there were genuine concerns about his and his family's safety if he did so? I don't know the answer, I'm merely curious. But the idea that he saw nothing and nobody, because he wasn't there, and lied through his teeth as part of some unlikely conspiracy to cover for the club members, is not something I could entertain without some really strong evidence. If that's why he didn't attend the inquest, because the police had reason to believe he'd made the whole thing up, he'd have been facing a tougher interrogation than Hutchinson did.

Hi Caz,

If Schwartz had felt threatened by his encounter with BS Man and Pipeman might he not just have layed low at a friend's house or somewhere out of town until it all died down?

[caz]

Fannys didnt see anything that has a relationship with how Liz Stride dies, Israels story however, if believed, was about the victim being assaulted a few feet and minutes from her throat being cut. It would be very important to How Liz Dies, in fact it suggests a killer in BSM.

I dont have it both ways, I have it the only way that is logical and within known evidence...again.

If Schwartz fled 'incontinently' from the scene, he was arguably terrified when he learned the woman had been murdered shortly after his departure. For all he knew, Pipeman and BS Man could have been in cahoots, and one or both could be after his own blood if he turned up at the inquest. Would he have been forced to attend, if there were genuine concerns about his and his family's safety if he did so? I don't know the answer, I'm merely curious. But the idea that he saw nothing and nobody, because he wasn't there, and lied through his teeth as part of some unlikely conspiracy to cover for the club members, is not something I could entertain without some really strong evidence. If that's why he didn't attend the inquest, because the police had reason to believe he'd made the whole thing up, he'd have been facing a tougher interrogation than Hutchinson did.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Fannys didnt see anything that has a relationship with how Liz Stride dies, Israels story however, if believed, was about the victim being assaulted a few feet and minutes from her throat being cut. It would be very important to How Liz Dies, in fact it suggests a killer in BSM.

I dont have it both ways, I have it the only way that is logical and within known evidence...again.

But she had something to say about timings.

William West contributed nothing to do with how she died but he was called. Likewise Eagle. And Spooner. And Tanner. And Lane. And Preston....all called.