Stride..a victim?

[Michael W Richards]

Seems to be popular.

Id like to use a Canadian Club on some folks here.

[DJA]

Seems to be popular.

[Wickerman]

I see I've left a mistake in the above.

I should have written:
So, the "about 1 am" in Swanson's report seems to refer to the hour at which he passed through Berner Street on the night of the murder, rather than the hour at which he made his statement or the hour at which he found out that Mrs. Mortimer had seen him.

I wondered what you were drinking....

[FrankO]

So, it seems that Goldstein went with Wess to the Leman Street police station on the night of 1 or 2 October, between 10 and 11 o'clock. So, the "about 1 am" in Swanson's report seems to refer to the hour at which he made his statement, rather than the hour at which he passed through Berner Street on the night of the murder or the hour at which he found out that Mrs. Mortimer had seen him. And so, as Jon writes, it was just the crooked way in which Swanson wrote.

All the best,
Frank

I see I've left a mistake in the above.

I should have written:
So, the "about 1 am" in Swanson's report seems to refer to the hour at which he passed through Berner Street on the night of the murder, rather than the hour at which he made his statement or the hour at which he found out that Mrs. Mortimer had seen him.

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
3 of the 4 witnesses that say they were alerted to the body came from inside the club, one estimated that since his return at 12:30 he spent 10 minutes inside before being summoned. All three had access to a clock inside the club, and all 3 give their time of first being aware as 12:40

They had access to a clock and yet one had to estimate that he'd been in the club for 10 minutes since 12.30. Why didn't he say "i checked the clock and it was 12.40?"

Was Berner Street heavy with traffic in the wee small hours? Mortimer hearing a cart was overwhelmingly likely to have been Diemschutz (who had checked the time by a clock around a minute ago )

This is fairly simple. The men were wrong and Diemschutz arrived at just after 1.00. Mortimer heard him. He found the body. Mortimer missed the Schwartz episode because she'd gone back inside (or she was simply a lying busybody) I find it easier to believe that someone like her might want to appear or feel important than I do to believe that Schwartz just makes up a story to place himself at the scene of a murder when he wasn't there.

Did they serve alcohol in the club by the way?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

The Morning Advertiser & Daily News of 3 October carried the following snippet, which sheds some light on the matter:

"Mr. W. Wess, Secretary of the International Working Men's Club, Berner-street, called at our office at midnight and made the following statement:-It having come to my knowledge that the man who was seen by Mrs. Mortimer, of 36, Berner-street, passing her house "carrying a black shiny bag," who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road about the time the murder was supposed to have occurred, was a member of the club, I immediately went with him, between 10 and 11 to-night, to the Leman-street Police-station, where he made a statement as to his whereabouts on Saturday evening which was completely satisfactory."

So, it seems that Goldstein went with Wess to the Leman Street police station on the night of 1 or 2 October, between 10 and 11 o'clock. So, the "about 1 am" in Swanson's report seems to refer to the hour at which he made his statement, rather than the hour at which he passed through Berner Street on the night of the murder or the hour at which he found out that Mrs. Mortimer had seen him. And so, as Jon writes, it was just the crooked way in which Swanson wrote.

All the best,
Frank

Thanks for that Frank

[Michael W Richards]

I don't know the answer to that one, Herlock.

It does appear that Fanny must have gone to bed around 1am, with no concerns that anything untoward had been going on. And if Michael's theory is that the club men were lying scumbags who were trying to pervert the course of justice because they suspected one of their own of cutting Stride's throat on their premises, how is it that he relies on their timings for any of this, 'corroborated' or not? If they did find the woman bleeding to death at 12.40-12.45, and wanted to delay raising the alarm, why did they not all sing from the same hymn sheet and have Diemschutz arriving to discover her dead at 1am, just like he said he did? Again, I seem to be missing something crucial to Michael's argument.

Love,

Caz
X

Because you seem to have a habit of twisting whats said to suit your own arguments against it, ...Ive said the people who lied are the people who make money from the club. They have motives for lying, the other witnesses for those times and event do not. Ive said when 4 people give the same time and events, and others do not have any corroboration for what they said they saw and did during that same time frame at the same location, that the 4 corroborated are more probably the truth, ....Ive said that Israel, Morris and Lave and Diemshitz all have no corroboration at all, and Ive quoted what Fanny said and showed where she has corroboration. Ive said that because Fanny was at her door until just after 1 and did not see or hear any cart or horse or Diemshitz, that his arrival "precisely at 1" is provably bullshit.

The fact that youd try and dispute any of that is telling. Forget the fact its annoying for the moment.

[FrankO]

Hello Frank,

I certainly sounds strange that Goldstein would go to Leman Street Station at 1am but that's how it's written. Maybe it was when he found out that Mrs Mortimer had seen him? Or maybe it was when a friend persuaded him to present himself; especially if he was initially reluctant to get involved? I don't know. When Michael specifically said 12.55 I wondered if he'd seen a quote from Goldstein stating that time?

Hi Herlock,

The Morning Advertiser & Daily News of 3 October carried the following snippet, which sheds some light on the matter:

"Mr. W. Wess, Secretary of the International Working Men's Club, Berner-street, called at our office at midnight and made the following statement:-It having come to my knowledge that the man who was seen by Mrs. Mortimer, of 36, Berner-street, passing her house "carrying a black shiny bag," who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road about the time the murder was supposed to have occurred, was a member of the club, I immediately went with him, between 10 and 11 to-night, to the Leman-street Police-station, where he made a statement as to his whereabouts on Saturday evening which was completely satisfactory."

So, it seems that Goldstein went with Wess to the Leman Street police station on the night of 1 or 2 October, between 10 and 11 o'clock. So, the "about 1 am" in Swanson's report seems to refer to the hour at which he made his statement, rather than the hour at which he passed through Berner Street on the night of the murder or the hour at which he found out that Mrs. Mortimer had seen him. And so, as Jon writes, it was just the crooked way in which Swanson wrote.

All the best,
Frank

[caz]

Sounds like Mrs M and Goldstein were in close harmony about when the former saw the latter passing down Berner Street. Probably because Mrs M recalled seeing the man pass by just before she went indoors to hit the sack. I imagine Goldstein narrowly missed the arrival of Diemschutz's cart.

Love,

Caz
X

[Herlock Sholmes]

I don't know if, and if so, why Michael assumes Smith couldn't have been correct, but I can tell you why I think he might have been.

Let's assume that Blackwell was correct in his timings of 1:16 a.m. If we then look at Edward Johnson, his assistant, we see that he stated that he arrived 3 or 4 minutes before Blackwell did. So, Johnson arrived at 1:12 or 1:13. And the moment Johnson was arriving, Smith, who had arrived at the scene shortly before, was being sent for the ambulance. Smith arrived after Lamb, who arrived 10 to 12 minutes before Blackwell (so, at 1:04 to 1:06 a.m.) This means that Smith must have arrived between 1:06 and 1:12 a.m.. If we'd agree that 1:08 – 1:09 a.m. seems a safe guess, then he arrived at the crime scene 8 or 9 minutes later than his estimate of 1:00 a.m.. If we’d count back from 1:08 – 1:09 to when he saw Stride & companion opposite Dutfield’s Yard on his round before, then we’d arrive at 12:38/12:39 – 12:43/12:44 a.m.

Also see Gavin Bromley’s (long) dissertation on Smith’s beat, it’s an interesting read:
https://www.casebook.org/dissertatio...iths-beat.html

Cheers Frank, I'll give that one a read when I (hopefully) get my iPad fixed next week. The article is too long to read on my phone.

[Wickerman]

It's the way Swanson writes, I've had issues with the way he structures his sentences before.
You'll notice where he writes; "...with a black bag at that hour....".
The only 'hour' previously made reference to is "about 1 a.m.". at the start of his note.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

In his report of 19 October 1888, Chief Inspector Donald Swanson stated: "About 1 a.m. 30th. Leon Goldstein of 22 Christian Street, Commercial Road, called at Leman Street and stated that he was the man that passed down Berner Street with a black bag at that hour, that the bag contained empty cigarette boxes and that he had left a coffe house in Spectale Alley a short time before."

It's written a bit crookedly if you'd ask me, but it was "about 1 a.m." when Mortimer saw Goldstein pass.

Hello Frank,

I certainly sounds strange that Goldstein would go to Leman Street Station at 1am but that's how it's written. Maybe it was when he found out that Mrs Mortimer had seen him? Or maybe it was when a friend persuaded him to present himself; especially if he was initially reluctant to get involved? I don't know. When Michael specifically said 12.55 I wondered if he'd seen a quote from Goldstein stating that time?

[FrankO]

Why do you assume that Smith couldn't have been correct in the time that he passed?

I don't know if, and if so, why Michael assumes Smith couldn't have been correct, but I can tell you why I think he might have been.

Let's assume that Blackwell was correct in his timings of 1:16 a.m. If we then look at Edward Johnson, his assistant, we see that he stated that he arrived 3 or 4 minutes before Blackwell did. So, Johnson arrived at 1:12 or 1:13. And the moment Johnson was arriving, Smith, who had arrived at the scene shortly before, was being sent for the ambulance. Smith arrived after Lamb, who arrived 10 to 12 minutes before Blackwell (so, at 1:04 to 1:06 a.m.) This means that Smith must have arrived between 1:06 and 1:12 a.m.. If we'd agree that 1:08 – 1:09 a.m. seems a safe guess, then he arrived at the crime scene 8 or 9 minutes later than his estimate of 1:00 a.m.. If we’d count back from 1:08 – 1:09 to when he saw Stride & companion opposite Dutfield’s Yard on his round before, then we’d arrive at 12:38/12:39 – 12:43/12:44 a.m.

Also see Gavin Bromley’s (long) dissertation on Smith’s beat, it’s an interesting read:
https://www.casebook.org/dissertatio...iths-beat.html

[Trevor Marriott]

Crikey! Even looks like you Trev.

You should look up the diference between a Nellie and Nessie !

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[FrankO]

Thanks Joshua.

Michael said that Mrs Mortimer was on her doorstep at 12.55 because that was the time that Goldstein passed but I can't find out if Goldstein actually said specifically what time he'd passed.

Hi Herlock,

In his report of 19 October 1888, Chief Inspector Donald Swanson stated: "About 1 a.m. 30th. Leon Goldstein of 22 Christian Street, Commercial Road, called at Leman Street and stated that he was the man that passed down Berner Street with a black bag at that hour, that the bag contained empty cigarette boxes and that he had left a coffe house in Spectale Alley a short time before."

It's written a bit crookedly if you'd ask me, but it was "about 1 a.m." when Mortimer saw Goldstein pass.