Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

John McCarthy

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • seanr
    replied
    Originally posted by richardnunweek View Post
    Hi,
    Is there another coincidence here, The Wringers/Ringers, are from Norfolk, They had The Britannica in Dorset street The Norfolk letter sent to the police a week before Millers court, stated I shall be at work between the two piers, These are The Britannica , and The Wellington[ another Whitechapel pub,] Also Further down Dorset street the letter alleged was penned from.
    My nose is twitching,
    Regards Richard,
    If you like we can ride the coincidences of the Yarmouth letter. It was reported to have said to look out for Jack the Ripper at either of the piers where he intends to do for two Norwich women before closing time. The piers at Yarmouth are known as the Britannia and the Wellington. There was a Britannia at the bottom of Dorset Street and a Duke of Wellington. The term ‘closing time’ is commonly associated with a pub. Mary Kelly was sighted at the Britannia on her last night.

    The Gehringers ran ‘The City of Norwich’ on Wentworth Street. 18 George Street may have been run by them in 1885/ 86 but Daniel Lewis was running it by 1888. Mary Kelly did live for a time in George Street. Could a ‘Norwich woman’ be a term for ‘Gehringer woman’? Had Kelly been in some sense a ‘Norwich woman’? It’s odd to point out specifically ‘Norwich’ women when supposed to be out and about in Yarmouth.

    If Mary Kelly was a ‘Norwich woman’ by virtue of having ‘worked’ for the Gehringers, then Emma Smith the first of the Whitechapel Murder victims would have been. She was resident at 18 George Street. She was attacked on/ near the street corner of Wentworth Street one block away from The City of Norwich. Martha Tabram may also have been a former ’Norwich woman’, she was also a resident of George Street. She was attacked in the alley directly in front of the City of Norwich.

    The last place Polly Nichols was seen alive was at the junction of Osborn Street and Whitechapel High Street, outside Feldman’s Post Office. Also close to the City of Norwich.

    The City of Norwich appears again in relation to Jacob Isenschmid, a suspect in the murder of Polly Nichols and Annie Chapman. His wife said he was a regular there, Mrs Gehringer when questioned denied this.

    Going back to the letter, it was unstamped. When a letter is unstamped, either the recipient agrees to pay the postage or the letter is returned to sender. The letter could have ended up delivered to 14 Dorset Street.

    The Chief Constable of Yarmouth in 1888 was William Brogdon. His son, also William Brogdon was at one time a Detective in H Division. He may have been there in 1888. The author may have known this and may have thought the message could get back to Dorset Street by that route.

    14 Dorset Street may have been intended as the recipient of letter. It may have been a threat.

    In 1898, McCarthy was described by Duckworth as controlling the area centred on Dorset Street and Gehringer controlling the area centred on Great Pearl Street. Perhaps they were rivals. In 1888, Yarmouth could be a ‘code’ for Dorset Street, Norwich could be a ‘code’ for the City of Norwich and its associates.

    An intriguing set of coincidences and suppositions, but maybe it's just that. Coincidence.

    Leave a comment:


  • richardnunweek
    replied
    Hi,
    Is there another coincidence here, The Wringers/Ringers, are from Norfolk, They had The Britannica in Dorset street The Norfolk letter sent to the police a week before Millers court, stated I shall be at work between the two piers, These are The Britannica , and The Wellington[ another Whitechapel pub,] Also Further down Dorset street the letter alleged was penned from.
    My nose is twitching,
    Regards Richard,

    Leave a comment:


  • MrBarnett
    replied
    I’ve just started a thread over At Howard’s gaff which may complement this one:

    https://www.jtrforums.com/showthread...923#post407923

    Leave a comment:


  • MrBarnett
    replied
    If you read the pamphlet issued to counter Fred McKenzie’s characterisation of Dorset Street as the ‘Worst Street in London’, you’ll see reference made to a ‘Mr J. McCarthy sen.’ The use of ‘sen’ suggests there was a similarly prominent ‘J. McCarthy jun.’, which of course there was - ‘Steve’, the entertainer.

    The two Dorset Street JMs were often mentioned in tandem as ‘sen.’ and ‘jun’. Perhaps there was another prominent JM father and son combo who supported local good causes alongside men named Crossingham, Cooney, Tempany etc.

    You never know.

    Leave a comment:


  • DJA
    replied
    Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

    Ah, ‘Boudica’. Was that how she spelt it?
    Short for Bootie Call?

    Leave a comment:


  • DJA
    replied
    Originally posted by Al Bundy's Eyes View Post

    Abberline was the 'go to' man in Whitechapel. How did he keep his finger on the proverbial pulse?
    By running a Consorting Squad with the likes of McCarthy supplying information.

    Leave a comment:


  • DJA
    replied
    Originally posted by seanr View Post

    Frederick Adam Gehringer, the senior was born in Germany probably Württemberg and later migrated to London. The earliest reference to a man who is probably him is a baker working in Brick Lane in 1852. By 1855, he is the landlord at the City of Norwich. He married Emma Gehringer, probably his second marriage, whose maiden name may have been Benmont and was British probably from Essex, sometime before 1861.

    Walter Ringer was from Norfolk. I doubt if their exists and have seen nothing which suggests any connection between the two families.
    There are 16 listings in the Norfolk phone book for Ringer,zilch for Gehringer.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrBarnett
    replied
    Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post

    Boudica was a Briton, ergo a Celt

    Norfolk has Briton, Angle, Saxon, Norman and even Roman ancestry.

    and it’s ‘Boudica’


    TRD
    Ah, ‘Boudica’. Was that how she spelt it?

    Leave a comment:


  • MrBarnett
    replied
    Was McCarthy any more of a **** than Crossingham, Cooney or several other lodging keepers in the East End at the time? Evidence would be nice.

    I think it’s quite quaint that some still live in hope that ‘something big’ might one day turn up. While such people are endlessly dreaming of breaking into King Tut’s tomb, others are sifting through piles of spoil looking for shards of pots or slivers of bone - and finding the exercise very rewarding.












    Leave a comment:


  • Al Bundy's Eyes
    replied
    Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post
    Keep going everyone...this is all leading towards something big. What, I have no idea, but its getting there slowly. Follow MrBarnett.
    Hi Mr Nelson,

    It's not in the realms of fantasy though, is it? Dorset St McCarthy was a dubious character for sure, but the name appearing on Abberlines leaving shindig doesn't mean it was impossible it was him, does it? I think Gary's done a fair job of presenting the case for Dorset Jack. If anything, the tangential Bobby namesake takes more convincing.

    Abberline was the 'go to' man in Whitechapel. How did he keep his finger on the proverbial pulse? But that's speculation, and what Gary's posted is perfectly reasonable. It doesn't change much, there's no conspiracy. McCarthy was a prominent local business owner. Outside of the Ripper killings, I would imagine that Fred's insight into Whitechapel would rely on relationships with those types. That's also speculation on my part. By the by, Gary's points are reasonable. McCarthy was a ****, but a **** that could realistically contribute to a Whitechapel officer's do.

    Just my view.

    Leave a comment:


  • Scott Nelson
    replied
    Keep going everyone...this is all leading towards something big. What, I have no idea, but its getting there slowly. Follow MrBarnett.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrBarnett
    replied
    Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

    Of course there were rough characters around, and of course the lodging house keepers employed men who could keep order in their premises. Just as club owners and publicans in rough areas have always done.

    I have great respect for Dan Cruikshank, but I suspect his talk of gangs is his own interpretation. And you’ll notice he seems to believe that Booth himself wrote Duckworth’s notes, so he perhaps didn’t research the subject too deeply. I bet if you were to ask Dan Cruikshank who Billy Maher worked for, he’d answer, ‘Who?’

    It would seem that at one point Jack McCarthy’s younger brother, Danny, was Billy’s ‘governor’, but when Danny died he switched his allegiance to Danny’s widow, Anne (Bill Crossingham’s daughter). You may recall that Maher and two other men launched a vicious attack on Maggie Sullivan, then Bill Crossingham’s ‘faux wife’. Billy stabbed her in the face and the head and dragged her out of one of Crossingham’s houses. There was a suggestion at the time that Crossingham himself had ordered the attack. That’s as may be, but I suspect Ann May have been behind it in some way. I doubt there was any love lost between Ann and Maggie, the woman who would become her stepmother and who would eventually deprive her of her father’s legacy.



    Maggie S. was stabbed in the face and side.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrBarnett
    replied
    I think Dorset Street JM may indeed have been a member of an organisation - the ‘Hambones’. Of course, the Jack McCarthy shown on this list after Marie Kendall and Steve McCarthy could have been an unassuming PS from Lambeth who had theatrical leanings.

    You never know.
    Last edited by MrBarnett; 11-01-2020, 05:29 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrBarnett
    replied
    Originally posted by seanr View Post

    The claim that McCarthy may have been some kind of criminal gang leader is not unique to those who focus on the Ripper case though. The historian Dan Cruikshank when writing about Spitalfields has the impression that John McCarthy was in charge of some kind of English/ Irish gang.



    To what extent can McCarthy be said to head up a gang?

    I confidently use the term ‘notorious’ to describe Jack McCarthy, slightly tongue in cheek, as Duckworth’s notes for the Booth notes records him that way. To what extent that could be extended to notorious gangster Jack McCarthy, I won't say. There's certainly some rough characters frequently to be found around him with Billy Maher and Lewis Lewinsky hanging around Dorset Street. He employed Henry Buckley, who seemed behave as some kind of enforcer in the Manning case and he must have carried a knife.
    Of course there were rough characters around, and of course the lodging house keepers employed men who could keep order in their premises. Just as club owners and publicans in rough areas have always done.

    I have great respect for Dan Cruikshank, but I suspect his talk of gangs is his own interpretation. And you’ll notice he seems to believe that Booth himself wrote Duckworth’s notes, so he perhaps didn’t research the subject too deeply. I bet if you were to ask Dan Cruikshank who Billy Maher worked for, he’d answer, ‘Who?’

    It would seem that at one point Jack McCarthy’s younger brother, Danny, was Billy’s ‘governor’, but when Danny died he switched his allegiance to Danny’s widow, Anne (Bill Crossingham’s daughter). You may recall that Maher and two other men launched a vicious attack on Maggie Sullivan, then Bill Crossingham’s ‘faux wife’. Billy stabbed her in the face and the head and dragged her out of one of Crossingham’s houses. There was a suggestion at the time that Crossingham himself had ordered the attack. That’s as may be, but I suspect Ann May have been behind it in some way. I doubt there was any love lost between Ann and Maggie, the woman who would become her stepmother and who would eventually deprive her of her father’s legacy.




    Leave a comment:


  • seanr
    replied
    Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

    Weren’t the Wringers/Ringers from Norfolk? I don’t think I’ve ever looked into their genealogy. Perhaps their name did have a Germanic origin.
    Frederick Adam Gehringer, the senior was born in Germany probably Württemberg and later migrated to London. The earliest reference to a man who is probably him is a baker working in Brick Lane in 1852. By 1855, he is the landlord at the City of Norwich. He married Emma Gehringer, probably his second marriage, whose maiden name may have been Benmont and was British probably from Essex, sometime before 1861.

    Walter Ringer was from Norfolk. I doubt if their exists and have seen nothing which suggests any connection between the two families.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X