John McCarthy

[Scott Nelson]

John McCarthy was a Police Sergeant. It definitely wasn't Kelly's Landlord or the Landlord's son.

[erobitha]

Different McCarthy - a Metropolitan police officer.

In the book "The Complete Jack The Ripper A-Z - The Ultimate Guide to The Ripper Mystery" by our very own Paul Begg and the sadly missed Martin Fido; it states "McCarthy and his son may well have been the "J. McCarthy and McCarthy, jun who attended Inspector Abberline's retirement dinner at The Three Nuns in June 1892".

Did this police offer have the first initial J and was his son prsent?

[Scott Nelson]

McCarthy was well known in the area. I'm pretty sure he had his thumbs in quite a few pies. In fact I beleive it may of been him who laid on Abberline's farewell drinks when he retired? At the very least he was present.

Different McCarthy - a Metropolitan police officer.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Hi TRD,

As you say, it might come to nothing, but piecing together the threads helps create a fuller picture. Suspect theory aside, it's always a good thing to shed a bit light on the subject and build up the lives of the people living at the time.

Like Gary said, this is very much his thing, so between you who knows what might be revealed. Probably won't solve the case, or even get closer to a solution, but we've all thought about the long departed Ellen McCarthy, a larger than life East End character, biting her neighbours nose off. Now that's history!

Keep at it.

[The Rookie Detective]

A connection to the 19 year old Ellen McCarthy treated for syphilis would be interesting, as part of an overall picture of the casual and necessary role of prostitution at the time.

yes, especially if this particular is the 16 year old living at 20 James St in 1881.

My entire theory began from wondering who the family were lodging at the same dwelling as Charles Lechmere and whether the McCarthy surname had any connection to John McCarthy.

at worst, I have it completely wrong on all fronts and I need to start again and dismiss Lechmere.

at best, I’ve established that a former prostitute lodged at the same address as one of the top 10 suspects and that her daughter got treated for an STD (this latter finding is NOT from me, but from the amazing work of Fisherman)
I would have also found that the McCarthy family lodging at the Lechmere dwelling were related to John McCarthy, MJK’s landlord.

this would connect Lechmere to a prostitute and John McCarthy


and therefore link Lechmere to both Nichols and MJK


i have never favoured Lechmere but if my theory on his lodger Ellen McCarthy is correct and she was a former prostitute, then I believe Lechmere is more likely to be the ripper.

the case continues


TRD

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

I’ve no idea whether TRD has found anything of significance here, but if he/she has, it’ll most likely get lost in a flood of off-topic posts about the same old same old.

It's a shame that all the characters have such generic names. Add in misspellings, entry errors and use of other names, and it's no wonder they all get mixed up and lost in the annals of time. Proof of connections between individuals could be seen as purely coincidental, but when looking at the mass of transient people in Whitechapel at the time, it's probably less coincidental than not. A connection to the 19 year old Ellen McCarthy treated for syphilis would be interesting, as part of an overall picture of the casual and necessary role of prostitution at the time.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I’ve no idea whether TRD has found anything of significance here, but if he/she has, it’ll most likely get lost in a flood of off-topic posts about the same old same old.

Mr Barnett killed Miss Kelly

[MrBarnett]

I’ve no idea whether TRD has found anything of significance here, but if he/she has, it’ll most likely get lost in a flood of off-topic posts about the same old same old.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

People don't like it on here when you take a thread sideways like this one - which now becomes about Kelly's rent arrears.

I accept what you're saying, but as ever, everything is intertwined.
You say my points are logical and rational - thanks, but I detect a possibly major flaw, and it's regarding something you mention...

In this man's world, how is Mary in a position to kick out Joe, rather than it being the other way around?
My simple answer is; the name of this thread.
It is John McCarthy who quite possibly gives Joe Barnett the nudge, knowing that it's Mary alone bringing in the money, and her friends - be they laundresses or prostitutes, or both.
JM probably doesn't care too much, as long as the rent is paid.
I detect a slightly guilty conscience with JM, at the inquest - he over-answers the questions, as though he is trying to justify his actions to some extent.

Your points above are logical and rational. MJK might have had some fondness for Joe but after he lost his job his use to her was no more. I don't think she was malicious or calculating, just a young woman who had spent most of her life just surviving. To her him leaving would be pragmatic as she could then focus on looking after herself for a while, until an alternative means of support could be found. I think she knew all too well Joe would not tolerate her allowing other unfortunates to share the room and as such he left. Maybe because the room was originally let to Joe and not her she employed this tactic, but McCarthy certainly had a strong awareness of MJK and was familiar with her. He knew all too well she was there on her own.

We only get to hear Joe' side of the story, regarding the reasons for the breakup. Aren't there always two, though?
MJK probably had a fairly good relationship with both McCarthy and Boyer - maybe her looks were to her advantage.
Whatever the case I don't blame her if she's kicked Barnett out - tough times demand hard decisions.

I think it is a combination of the rent being paid in bits and pieces but not in full, combined with McCarthy trying his luck to say the rent owed was 30 shillings in the hope a family member would settle up.

Is that why they didn't turn up to the funeral?

[erobitha]

Barnett: I am a porter on Billingsgate Market, but have been out of employment for the past 3 or 4 months.

Why is the rent arrears period only about half of Barnett's period of unemployment?
Joe & Mary must have gone from being reliable tenants, to only paying some of the rent - getting further and further behind for the 3 or 4 months Joe has been out of work. So the rent arrears is not a contiguous period of zero payments, which would explain the odd amount owing - they are paying in dribs and drabs.
Even by Nov 9, Boyer is sent for the rent - not to evict - so either McCarthy is an understanding fellow, to the point of being charitable, or the rent arrears details he gives Baxter, are false.
If McCarthy were telling the truth though, it would seem clear that it is Mary's work that is paying the partial rent.
In that case, why would Joe object to other women staying in the room - presumably they can help to make up the shortfall?
How can Joe expect to make rent elsewhere, on his own? If he can, surely he and Mary can make rent, together.
There is a rather obvious explanation...

Barnett didn't leave Kelly because he objected to the prostitute staying in the room - he was actually kicked out by Kelly because he couldn't contribute financially.

Maria Harvey left the room quickly, when Joe came around for a 'chat', that evening.

As you say it was 'a mans world'. So I don't understand this...

I let the room about ten months ago to the deceased and a man named Joe, who I believed to be her husband.

I knew deceased as Mary Jane Kelly.

Does that mean McCarthy knew the 'husband' as Joe Kelly?
How can he know Mary Jane's surname, but not Joe's?

People don't like it on here when you take a thread sideways like this one - which now becomes about Kelly's rent arrears.

I don't care much for protocol and never have.

Your points above are logical and rational. MJK might have had some fondness for Joe but after he lost his job his use to her was no more. I don't think she was malicious or calculating, just a young woman who had spent most of her life just surviving. To her him leaving would be pragmatic as she could then focus on looking after herself for a while, until an alternative means of support could be found. I think she knew all too well Joe would not tolerate her allowing other unfortunates to share the room and as such he left. Maybe because the room was originally let to Joe and not her she employed this tactic, but McCarthy certainly had a strong awareness of MJK and was familiar with her. He knew all too well she was there on her own.

I think it is a combination of the rent being paid in bits and pieces but not in full, combined with McCarthy trying his luck to say the rent owed was 30 shillings in the hope a family member would settle up.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It was a man’s world. The debt was surely Joe Barnett’s primarily.

Barnett: I am a porter on Billingsgate Market, but have been out of employment for the past 3 or 4 months.

Why is the rent arrears period only about half of Barnett's period of unemployment?
Joe & Mary must have gone from being reliable tenants, to only paying some of the rent - getting further and further behind for the 3 or 4 months Joe has been out of work. So the rent arrears is not a contiguous period of zero payments, which would explain the odd amount owing - they are paying in dribs and drabs.
Even by Nov 9, Boyer is sent for the rent - not to evict - so either McCarthy is an understanding fellow, to the point of being charitable, or the rent arrears details he gives Baxter, are false.
If McCarthy were telling the truth though, it would seem clear that it is Mary's work that is paying the partial rent.
In that case, why would Joe object to other women staying in the room - presumably they can help to make up the shortfall?
How can Joe expect to make rent elsewhere, on his own? If he can, surely he and Mary can make rent, together.
There is a rather obvious explanation...

Barnett didn't leave Kelly because he objected to the prostitute staying in the room - he was actually kicked out by Kelly because he couldn't contribute financially.

Maria Harvey left the room quickly, when Joe came around for a 'chat', that evening.

As you say it was 'a mans world'. So I don't understand this...

I let the room about ten months ago to the deceased and a man named Joe, who I believed to be her husband.

I knew deceased as Mary Jane Kelly.

Does that mean McCarthy knew the 'husband' as Joe Kelly?
How can he know Mary Jane's surname, but not Joe's?

[The Rookie Detective]

Yes, I saw that. I was trying to find her maiden name by looking for GRO birth records for her children, James and Ellen.

I believe i may have found something rather interesting regarding Ellen McCarthy



TRD

[DJA]

Kinky

[MrBarnett]

To me, McCarthy allowing Kelly to be behind in her rent is a non-starter and most likely has a very reasonable explanation. The pool of people that would have been renting from McCarthy were poor and I would not be surprised if a good percentage of them worked irregularly. Probably spent a lot of money on drink as well. It is quite likely that McCarthy knew that Kelly was good for the money at some point and that she had a habit of paying up even if late. Contrast this with evicting her and renting from the same pool of people and possibly getting someone who got behind and skipped on their rent. Simply a case of better the devil you know.

I also would not be surprised if Kelly at times did "favors" for McCarthy.

This doesn't have to be sinister or complicated.

c.d.

It was a man’s world. The debt was surely Joe Barnett’s primarily.

[c.d.]

To me, McCarthy allowing Kelly to be behind in her rent is a non-starter and most likely has a very reasonable explanation. The pool of people that would have been renting from McCarthy were poor and I would not be surprised if a good percentage of them worked irregularly. Probably spent a lot of money on drink as well. It is quite likely that McCarthy knew that Kelly was good for the money at some point and that she had a habit of paying up even if late. Contrast this with evicting her and renting from the same pool of people and possibly getting someone who got behind and skipped on their rent. Simply a case of better the devil you know.

I also would not be surprised if Kelly at times did "favors" for McCarthy.

This doesn't have to be sinister or complicated.

c.d.