John McCarthy

[MrBarnett]

Wow. I guess he had a real spilt personality then, didn't he. A Slumlord, Philanthropist, notorious gangster, fight promoter, stage entertainer and fundraiser...the list goes on and on...

I'll stick to the likely possibility that the landlord of Miller's Court did not attend Abberline's retirement ceremony. As to Metropolitan PS McCarthy, he's a better candidate for attendance than your Slumlord, Esq.

‘Notorious gangster’? I must have missed that. Evidence for all the rest is there for anyone to see - by the bucket load.

I’m guessing that at some point you convinced yourself that McCarthy was a senior figure in an imaginary Cockney Nostra and you can’t admit that you were wrong without losing face. There’s a lot of that goes on in Ripperology. No wonder the outside world perceives us in such a negative light.

For the record, when you see a list of East End businessmen who have contributed to a good cause and it includes names such as McCarthy, Crossingham, Cooney, Tempany, Wildermuth etc, who do you imagine these people were? (Especially when they are awarded the honorific esq.) Members of the Inner Temple, perhaps? Peers of the realm?

[MrBarnett]

Some Lodging House keepers and publicans, not all. Many in the poorest sections on the East End, including the Dorest Street McCarthy, were under the watch of, if not a part of, organized crime.

And your evidence is...?

[DJA]

"Organized Crime" usually implies Police Corruption. 70%.

Otherwise it's disorganized crime.30%.

That's a mix of statistics,however financial return and conviction rates dominate.

[Scott Nelson]

It astonishes me that anyone would find it unlikely that there was social interaction between prominent East End businessmen such as the McCarthies and senior local police officers. How on earth would it have been possible for H Div. to have efficiently policed Spitalfields without having a good relationship with the Lodging House keepers and local publicans?

Some Lodging House keepers and publicans, not all. Many in the poorest sections on the East End, including the Dorest Street McCarthy, were under the watch of, if not a part of, organized crime.

[Scott Nelson]

What we are looking for are a J. McCarthy and his son S. McCarthy who were prominent East End businessmen and who had a talent for entertainment. Oh, and who contributed to the same causes as people named Crossingham, Cooney and Tempany.

It’s a real brain teaser.

Wow. I guess he had a real spilt personality then, didn't he. A Slumlord, Philanthropist, notorious gangster, fight promoter, stage entertainer and fundraiser...the list goes on and on...

I'll stick to the likely possibility that the landlord of Miller's Court did not attend Abberline's retirement ceremony. As to Metropolitan PS McCarthy, he's a better candidate for attendance than your Slumlord, Esq.

[Joshua Rogan]

No. That was named after a previous landlord named Wringer, wasn’t it?

Apparently so. But i thought it seemed close enough that it might be related somehow. Perhaps anglicised spelling?
Oh well.

[MrBarnett]

Any relation to the Ringers of the Britannia pub?

No. That was named after a previous landlord named Wringer, wasn’t it?

[Joshua Rogan]

Sean,

It’s great that you’ve got your teeth into the ‘Ringers’.

Any relation to the Ringers of the Britannia pub?

[MrBarnett]

FWIW the story about 18 George Street for which I do not have a good source is that Frederick Gehringer owned the property having acquired it from George Satchell. Gehringer subdivided the floors doubling the possible number of tenants and then sold the property to Daniel Lewis in 1886.

Another story about the ownership goes that Daniel Lewis bought the property directly from George Satchell and Gehringer never owned it.

Doubling the number of tenants does sound like the sort of thing the man accused of 'house farming' in 1902 might have done. There is the possibility Gehringer leased the property from George Satchell and the place was sold to Daniel Lewis from under him. Which might give cause for the Gehringers to feel aggrieved towards 18 George Street.

To date I have no good source which links the Gehringer's to 18 George Street. But now it seems his address may have been given as 18 George Street at the time of the Munro 'accident'? - I doubt he was a tenant there.

Sean,

It’s great that you’ve got your teeth into the ‘Ringers’.

Satchell interests me particularly, because of his connections to St George E. and NE Passage in particular.

Gary

[seanr]

Did the Gehringers actually ‘own’ any property at all?

Gary

FWIW the story about 18 George Street for which I do not have a good source is that Frederick Gehringer owned the property having acquired it from George Satchell. Gehringer subdivided the floors doubling the possible number of tenants and then sold the property to Daniel Lewis in 1886.

Another story about the ownership goes that Daniel Lewis bought the property directly from George Satchell and Gehringer never owned it.

Doubling the number of tenants does sound like the sort of thing the man accused of 'house farming' in 1902 might have done. There is the possibility Gehringer leased the property from George Satchell and the place was sold to Daniel Lewis from under him. Which might give cause for the Gehringers to feel aggrieved towards 18 George Street.

To date I have no good source which links the Gehringer's to 18 George Street. But now it seems his address may have been given as 18 George Street at the time of the Munro 'accident'? - I doubt he was a tenant there.

[seanr]

A few more details on the Alec Munro 'accident' found by Grappling with History https://twitter.com/wrestling1880s/s...09192275890181 (the forthcoming book on Munro and Ching Hook looks cool).

It seems Munro was resident at 6 Great Pearl Street, a Gehringer owned lodging house, and he went into the kitchen at a McCarthy owned lodging house and ended up falling accidentally onto a knife held in the hand to Thomas Hewington. Both McCarthy's employee John Williams and Gehringer himself endorse the view this was a tragic accident.

As Frederick Dinger [sic] said in his trial testimony:

the deceased and the prisoner to the best of my knowledge had been on friendly terms—I know they had been in the habit of showing him a knife and frightening him, it was a common occurrence; he used to run away.

All very plausible I'm sure. Thomas Hewington found not guilty of any crime even manslaughter, it appears.

[MrBarnett]

Donations to the People's Palace, 1885 -



Simon

Hi Simon,

Yes, we discussed this earlier. The lodging house keepers and the local police were often involved in similar subscriptions and social events.

Gary

[MrBarnett]

31 Great Pearl Street which became 31 Calvin Street was passed down to Frederick William Nafzger who ran a haulage company from that address using the name Gehringer, until he retired 1956. I've simply been assuming that Gehringer owned that one, it seems to have stayed with the family until at least the 1950s. I'm under the impression he owned 22 Little Pearl Street where the barrow lending business was, too.
I don't

It seems the Borough Council of Finsbury were convinced he owned many homes in 1902. Their prosecutor described him as a 'house farmer' with an income of £135 income per house. There's a suggestion he owned 39 houses in Berwick Street alone.




I've posted the full article in the Frederick Gehringer thread, as this thread isn't really about him.

This description of his income and ownership of houses doesn't match up well with the probate records. It's a bit of a mystery to me.

But surely the farming involved renting the properties at one price and subletting then at a much higher rent. I doubt Gehringer was the freeholder.

[Simon Wood]

Donations to the People's Palace, 1885 -



Simon

[seanr]

Sean,

Did the Gehringers actually ‘own’ any property at all?

A man who left a mere £500 in his will was hardly a property mogul. From memory, McCarthy left around £20k and the Crossinghams between them £11k.

Gary

31 Great Pearl Street which became 31 Calvin Street was passed down to Frederick William Nafzger who ran a haulage company from that address using the name Gehringer, until he retired 1956. I've simply been assuming that Gehringer owned that one, it seems to have stayed with the family until at least the 1950s. I'm under the impression he owned 22 Little Pearl Street where the barrow lending business was, too.

It seems the Borough Council of Finsbury were convinced he owned many homes in 1902. Their prosecutor described him as a 'house farmer' with an income of £135 income per house. There's a suggestion he owned 39 houses in Berwick Street alone.




I've posted the full article in the Frederick Gehringer thread, as this thread isn't really about him.

This description of his income and ownership of houses doesn't match up well with the probate records. It's a bit of a mystery to me.