John McCarthy

[MrBarnett]

I just noticed a thread on the other forum where Debs mentions that a Frederick Adam Gehringer was a witness to the murder/ accidental death of boxer Alec Munro - https://jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=19917&page=8. Not sure if this the senior or the junior one.

The case is interesting. I was recently reading the grapplingwithhistory posts on Ching Hook / Hezekiah Moscow: https://grapplingwithhistory.com/201...zekiah-moscow/

There may be a link to McCarthy as Ching Hook is reputed to have picked up his boxing name at a pub called Blue Coat Boy. I am pretty sure that would have been the Dorset Street Blue Coat Boy. Alec Munro was Ching Hook's sparring partner and mentor, he was another noted East End boxer of the day (both men seem to have been associated with lion taming and exhibitions with bears). Does the boxing connection maybe link these men to John McCarthy?

It's odd to me that there was a witness who would have been working for McCarthy and Gehringer himself at the scene. Given I recently found a case where Emma Gehringer seems to lie in court, I do harbour doubts about the 'it was an accident, he fell onto the knife' story - https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/brow...-954#highlight.

Ching Hook himself seems to have later disappeared. So with Alec Munro and Black Jack Stevens also seeming to come to sticky ends, being an East End boxer looks like it was dangerous outside of the ring, too.

Debs mentions him as Frederick Gehringer of 18 George Street. Can we be certain now the Frederick Adam Gehringer did own 18 George Street prior to 1888? - that's one of my list of top facts I'd love to get nailed down.

Sean,

Did the Gehringers actually ‘own’ any property at all?

A man who left a mere £500 in his will was hardly a property mogul. From memory, McCarthy left around £20k and the Crossinghams between them £11k.

Gary

[MrBarnett]

Sounds very much like an organised crime network comprising of east end gangsters and corrupt police and officials.

it seems almost obvious that there would have been an organised crime set up in the east end I even back then and makes the Krays seem tame in comparison.

The fact that that at least 3 boxers were sledges to have been murdered/disappeared then that is one coincidence too many.

Where there’s money to be made, you’ll always find men abusing power.

in context with the ripper, would it be fair to suggest that the local prostitutes were also part of an illicit network, ergo, some of the victims may have been killed out of local gang rivalry but made to look like a serial killer was on the loose?

how sickening would it be if all the written letters, witnesses, murder scenes and victims were all part of something much bigger than just a lone serial killer on a personal rampage.

was the ripper merely an enforcer or punished paid to kill any of the prostitutes who tried to leave the network or who couldn’t pay their way?

on a strange way I’m hoping it’s all just coincidence and that the killer was a lone wolf operating independently.

otherwise the greatest murder mystery in history becomes nothing more that a bog standard gang land feud between criminals who were insignificant.


TRD

It doesn’t seem obvious to me, TRD.

With the possible exception of MJK, the WM murder victims are pretty unlikely business assets. They earned a few pence here and there which they squandered almost immediately on drink.

The business model down in the Ratcliff Highway - charging shillings rather than pence to punters who in addition would be encouraged to buy illicit booze and were often robbed - would have been far more attractive to some form of organised management.

Indeed, there does appear to have been a degree of organisation among those who operated down there - and examples of violence being meted out to the ‘business assets’. Names such as Morgenstern, McCarthy, Maywood, Miller, Nod(d)ing etc are worth looking into if you’re looking for a ‘mob’ of some kind.

[The Rookie Detective]

It astonishes me that anyone would find it unlikely that there was social interaction between prominent East End businessmen such as the McCarthies and senior local police officers. How on earth would it have been possible for H Div. to have efficiently policed Spitalfields without having a good relationship with the Lodging House keepers and local publicans?

Sounds very much like an organised crime network comprising of east end gangsters and corrupt police and officials.

it seems almost obvious that there would have been an organised crime set up in the east end I even back then and makes the Krays seem tame in comparison.

The fact that that at least 3 boxers were sledges to have been murdered/disappeared then that is one coincidence too many.

Where there’s money to be made, you’ll always find men abusing power.

in context with the ripper, would it be fair to suggest that the local prostitutes were also part of an illicit network, ergo, some of the victims may have been killed out of local gang rivalry but made to look like a serial killer was on the loose?

how sickening would it be if all the written letters, witnesses, murder scenes and victims were all part of something much bigger than just a lone serial killer on a personal rampage.

was the ripper merely an enforcer or punished paid to kill any of the prostitutes who tried to leave the network or who couldn’t pay their way?

on a strange way I’m hoping it’s all just coincidence and that the killer was a lone wolf operating independently.

otherwise the greatest murder mystery in history becomes nothing more that a bog standard gang land feud between criminals who were insignificant.


TRD

[MrBarnett]

It astonishes me that anyone would find it unlikely that there was social interaction between prominent East End businessmen such as the McCarthies and senior local police officers. How on earth would it have been possible for H Div. to have efficiently policed Spitalfields without having a good relationship with the Lodging House keepers and local publicans?

[MrBarnett]

In December, 1893 an ‘H. Division Band Supper’ was held at the White Hart in Leman Street. Ex-Superintendent T. Arnold was present, as was Inspector Reid. Other attendees whose names you may recognise were Cooney, Smith, Gehringer and - of course - the ubiquitous McCarthies Sen. And Jun.

As usual, McCarthy Jun. provided entertainment. Sadly, Sgt White, the band’s senior cornet player was unable to attend due to illness.

[MrBarnett]

This from 1905 is the sort of thing:

The entertainment was sponsored by Sir Samuel Montague and several other dignitaries with East End connections - and organised by Jack McCarthy and Johnny Cooney.

Steve McCarthy had them rolling in the aisles, and his wife Marie Lloyd stole the audience’s hearts.

[MrBarnett]

What we are looking for are a J. McCarthy and his son S. McCarthy who were prominent East End businessmen and who had a talent for entertainment. Oh, and who contributed to the same causes as people named Crossingham, Cooney and Tempany.

It’s a real brain teaser.

This from 1905 is the sort of thing:

[seanr]

I just noticed a thread on the other forum where Debs mentions that a Frederick Adam Gehringer was a witness to the murder/ accidental death of boxer Alec Munro - https://jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=19917&page=8. Not sure if this the senior or the junior one.

The case is interesting. I was recently reading the grapplingwithhistory posts on Ching Hook / Hezekiah Moscow: https://grapplingwithhistory.com/201...zekiah-moscow/

There may be a link to McCarthy as Ching Hook is reputed to have picked up his boxing name at a pub called Blue Coat Boy. I am pretty sure that would have been the Dorset Street Blue Coat Boy. Alec Munro was Ching Hook's sparring partner and mentor, he was another noted East End boxer of the day (both men seem to have been associated with lion taming and exhibitions with bears). Does the boxing connection maybe link these men to John McCarthy?

It's odd to me that there was a witness who would have been working for McCarthy and Gehringer himself at the scene. Given I recently found a case where Emma Gehringer seems to lie in court, I do harbour doubts about the 'it was an accident, he fell onto the knife' story - https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/brow...-954#highlight.

Ching Hook himself seems to have later disappeared. So with Alec Munro and Black Jack Stevens also seeming to come to sticky ends, being an East End boxer looks like it was dangerous outside of the ring, too.

Debs mentions him as Frederick Gehringer of 18 George Street. Can we be certain now the Frederick Adam Gehringer did own 18 George Street prior to 1888? - that's one of my list of top facts I'd love to get nailed down.

[MrBarnett]

I don't know how to evaluate the Oylers in comparison but I'm told the estate was large enough to be shared amongst his nieces and nephews. Frederick William Nafzger was the nephew who received 31 Great Pearl Street and 6 handcarts.

So, he had an estate large enough to be broken up and shared. Comparatively wealthy compared to the many living in the lodging houses who'd struggle to have two pennies to rub together.

A comparison of probate records is helpful.

Frederick William Gehringer of 31, Great Pearl Street, who died in May, 1909, left £564. 28s 7d.

George Benjamin Oyler left £52, 999 16s when he died in 1921. His brother, Thomas Potter Oyler, left a mere £11k.

[seanr]

How did Geringer’s wealth compare to that of the seriously rich Oylers?

Gary

I don't know how to evaluate the Oylers in comparison but I'm told the estate was large enough to be shared amongst his nieces and nephews. Frederick William Nafzger was the nephew who received 31 Great Pearl Street and 6 handcarts.

So, he had an estate large enough to be broken up and shared. Comparatively wealthy compared to the many living in the lodging houses who'd struggle to have two pennies to rub together.

[seanr]

Thanks, Al.

It’s an excellent book, on the whole, but it’s not without errors. I’d want to know Fiona’s source before I quoted it.

I don't know for sure, but the great grand nephew of Fredrick Gehringer (the junior) mentioned to me in a brief correspondence that he was a source for much of Fiona Rule's material on the Gehringers. It may be a story passed down through the family, like the one about a member of the Gehringer clan being questioned in the Jack the Ripper investigation.

[MrBarnett]

Having check Fiona Rules book, she clearly puts the Gehringer Sedan chair as "rumour has it".

Thanks, Al.

It’s an excellent book, on the whole, but it’s not without errors. I’d want to know Fiona’s source before I quoted it.

[MrBarnett]

What we are looking for are a J. McCarthy and his son S. McCarthy who were prominent East End businessmen and who had a talent for entertainment. Oh, and who contributed to the same causes as people named Crossingham, Cooney and Tempany.

It’s a real brain teaser.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Having check Fiona Rules book, she clearly puts the Gehringer Sedan chair as "rumour has it".

[MrBarnett]

Scott,

Jack and Steve McCarthy organised boxing ‘exhibitions’ and sold tickets from 27, Dorset Street.

Steve’s wife Marie Kendal gave out food vouchers that could be redeemed at Jack’s shop in Dorset Street.

Crossingham, Cooney and Tempany contributed to retirement funds for senior police officers.

Remind me, what have your Lambeth PS and his son got going for them?

Gary