Kosminski..why the big secret ?

[Simon Wood]

And you've just proved Godwin right. Nicely done.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

This thread's interesting about Aaron. I hold my hands up as being one of them people who assumed he was a bit daft and the stereotyped drooling imbecile, but now having read this topic I'm not so sure that's entirely true.

Where did the thing about him eating from the gutter originate from? And was that a well known fact that was confirmed by the locals or anyone who knew him?

I still don't think he was in any way, shape or form connected to the Ripper murders, but I don't think he was the raving lunatic that we've been made to believe either. He may have had violent tendencies at times or had aggressive episodes (i.e. the knife waving), but that doesn't necessarily equate to him being psychopath or simpleton. For all we know that could've been a one-off and was as worse as he ever got.

[DaveMc]

So now we have Anderson as a liar, a boaster, forgetful, possibly insane, a racist, and now... the head of the Gestapo. Godwin's law succeeds again.

"Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies or Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies) is a humorous observation made by Mike Godwin in 1990 which has become an Internet adage. It states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

RH

It seems unavoidable.
If I had my wits with me I would have steered around it.
I'll have to remember the KGB the next time.
DANG IT !

Of Anderson's character, I'll take boastful and racist (and sexist and classist...) I wouldn't call him a liar beyond the scope of politics and national security, thought.
That sort of thing was part of MY culture in the 1970's. So Anderson is not out of step for his time.

He strikes me as a "matter of fact" administrator. It's not difficult at all to imagine an Occam's Razor approach to his conclusion.
Who could be committing murders in this area?
Someone who lives in this area.
How could someone keep his family and friends from seeing blood evidence of the crime?
They couldn't.
Who could see the evidence and not report it to the Police?
The Jews.
Who among the Jewish population is likely to commit insane murders?
The crazy guy with voices in his head eating from the gutter.

Straightforward, singular answers to his questions.

But, with other officers claiming that the killer had drowned in the Thames, he wasn't able to convince his own officers of Kosminski's guilt.
It doesn't matter if Anderson was certain or not.
He couldn't prove it by more means than just one witness.

None of my opinion is targeted at defaming Anderson. He was CID. His primary concern would have been the political unrest. Had he used a dragnet tactic to clean out a Fenian group, he would not be widely criticized by his culture. It would be wrong to criticize him now.
He did his job and achieved his goal.

[Jeff Leahy]

This thread's interesting about Aaron. I hold my hands up as being one of them people who assumed he was a bit daft and the stereotyped drooling imbecile, but now having read this topic I'm not so sure that's entirely true.

Where did the thing about him eating from the gutter originate from? And was that a well known fact that was confirmed by the locals or anyone who knew him?

I still don't think he was in any way, shape or form connected to the Ripper murders, but I don't think he was the raving lunatic that we've been made to believe either. He may have had violent tendencies at times or had aggressive episodes (i.e. the knife waving), but that doesn't necessarily equate to him being psychopath or simpleton. For all we know that could've been a one-off and was as worse as he ever got.

Well if one person is actually starting to get it its been worth while.

But its not being said that he either was or was NOT a raving lunatic.

What is being said is that Schizophrenia is an illness that develops in WAVES.

ie it comes and goes. So yes he might be completely dotty and eating out of the gutter for a period of time but one would expect that period to pass after a while (psychotic attacks 12-16 weeks). People have even learned to recognize their own illness and deal with it. Its not an either or?

If Aaron was responsible for the JtR murders, and I'm neither stating he was or wasnt or which murders might be JtR murders, then its quite possible that he was walking around in January 1889, perfectly normal and without a clue what had happened, may be just some disquieting nightmares/dreams.

Pirate

[Phil Carter]

Hello Jeff,

May I ask you something? If we say that Kosminski WAS taken to the Seaside Home, and WAS confirmed by the witness as Anderson's man. Am I correct in assuming then, that he was therefore confirmed as being the murderer of ONE of the victims only? Because I would like to know what evidence there would be of him being guilty of all five?

Or have I misunderstood this vital point?

best wishes

Phil

[DVV]

Well if one person is actually starting to get it its been worth while.

But its not being said that he either was or was NOT a raving lunatic.

What is being said is that Schizophrenia is an illness that develops in WAVES.

ie it comes and goes. So yes he might be completely dotty and eating out of the gutter for a period of time but one would expect that period to pass after a while (psychotic attacks 12-16 weeks). People have even learned to recognize their own illness and deal with it. Its not an either or?

If Aaron was responsible for the JtR murders, and I'm neither stating he was or wasnt or which murders might be JtR murders, then its quite possible that he was walking around in January 1889, perfectly normal and without a clue what had happened, may be just some disquieting nightmares/dreams.

Pirate

Hi Jeff,

as pointed out by Mike, eating from the gutter is clearly a paranoid issue.

Amitiés,
David

[robhouse]

Hi Phil,

I assume that they would have concluded that he was the Ripper, since they apparently thought the C5 were all Ripper victims... but I am not sure about the legal technicalities. In modern serial killer cases, I believe that they only pursue conviction for the murders they can actually prove... or ones to which the killer has confessed.

For example, if the witness was Lawende, and the police had decided to actually try to convict the suspect based on the witness identification, I think they would have pursued a conviction only for the Eddowes murder. But I could be wrong here.

Is that what you meant?

Rob H

[Mascara & Paranoia]

If Aaron was responsible for the JtR murders, and I'm neither stating he was or wasnt or which murders might be JtR murders, then its quite possible that he was walking around in January 1889, perfectly normal and without a clue what had happened, may be just some disquieting nightmares/dreams.

Possible, but not probable. Eating out of the gutter and planning premeditated (he brought a knife out with him) murder and mutilation are two completely different things. I don't know how many paranoid schizophrenics have quite done that. If anything, their murders would be more random and less elusive. Whoever Jack the Ripper was knew exactly what he was doing and seemed to have had a clear mind and all his wits about him during the execution of his crimes. Entrap, subdue, slice, remove, escape. I would've thought someone of Aaron's supposed caliber would have stayed with the body longer than the estimated five-to-ten minutes that the Ripper did with his street murders (though the actual killer probably took even less time than that to have done what he did), either experimenting with the innards or just being curious by them.

That and I still wanna know where the eating-from-the-gutter-because-the-voices-told-him-so rumour[?] originated from and whether or not it could be confirmed by more than one person (specifically by the locals who knew of him in the area or, better still, those who actually knew him).

Btw, this isn't me ranting at you personally, PJ, just that the opportunity to put these thoughts out there presented themselves better when replying to you, and I kinda went off on a tangent.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff,

May I ask you something? If we say that Kosminski WAS taken to the Seaside Home, and WAS confirmed by the witness as Anderson's man. Am I correct in assuming then, that he was therefore confirmed as being the murderer of ONE of the victims only? Because I would like to know what evidence there would be of him being guilty of all five?

Or have I misunderstood this vital point? best wishes
Phil

Well thats all speculation. There are those who believe Aaron killed Stride and Stride alone. Macnaughten speculated that he killed five, Anderson six.

I'm simply saying that given what is known about schizophrenia the possibility to all conclusions remains.

Pirate

[DVV]

Eating out of the gutter and planning premeditated (he brought a knife out with him) murder and mutilation are two completely different things.

Hi M&P,

Eating in La Tour d'Argent and planning murder and mutilation are also two completely different things...!

Amitiés,
David

[Jeff Leahy]

Possible, but not probable. Eating out of the gutter and planning premeditated (he brought a knife out with him) murder and mutilation are two completely different things. I don't know how many paranoid schizophrenics have quite done that. If anything, their murders would be more random and less elusive. Whoever Jack the Ripper was knew exactly what he was doing and seemed to have had a clear mind and all his wits about him during the execution of his crimes. Entrap, subdue, slice, remove, escape. I would've thought someone of Aaron's supposed caliber would have stayed with the body longer than the estimated five-to-ten minutes that the Ripper did with his street murders (though the actual killer probably took even less time than that to have done what he did), either experimenting with the innards or just being curious by them.

That and I still wanna know where the eating-from-the-gutter-because-the-voices-told-him-so rumour[?] originated from and whether or not it could be confirmed by more than one person (specifically by the locals who knew of him in the area or, better still, those who actually knew him).

Btw, this isn't me ranting at you personally, PJ, just that the opportunity to put these thoughts out there presented themselves better when replying to you, and I kinda went off on a tangent.

Know thats perfectly OK I understand..

Rob may correct me but I think the eating from the gutter and knowing the ways of all man kind comes from his comital notes.

And this would seem to indicate Pararnoid Schizophrenia, although I understand that paranioia at some level is part and parcel of the illness generally.

Theres a Hollywood film starring Russel Crow as a schizophrenic, OK its Hollywood but it does try and deal with some of the complications faced with when looking at the illness (Beautiful Mind)

Not that I'm suggesting that Aaron was a mad professor type but I dont necessarily see that one psychotic episode will be the same as the next, also one would expect each attack to become more savere.

Pirate

[Phil Carter]

Hello Rob, Jeff,

Thank you both for the replies.

Yes, it was what I meant. Because if Kosminski was identified for ONE killing only. (PRESUMING this was the witness to Eddowes killing that was Anderson's witness), calling him Jack the Ripper is entirely a different kettle of fish. It can only be speculation. And to say that because Anderson/Macnaughten said "he" killed five, six etc, is not a viable and acceptable truth. That is Anderson/Macnaughten speculating is it not?
Therefore Kosminski was NOT the Ripper. He may, on that evidence have been a killer of ONE woman. But he wasn't Jack the Ripper. Because there would be no evidence unless he confessed to all five, or six, or was confirmed by more witnesses. Correct?

best wishes

Phil

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Rob, Jeff,

Thank you both for the replies.

Yes, it was what I meant. Because if Kosminski was identified for ONE killing only. (PRESUMING this was the witness to Eddowes killing that was Anderson's witness), calling him Jack the Ripper is entirely a different kettle of fish. It can only be speculation. And to say that because Anderson/Macnaughten said "he" killed five, six etc, is not a viable and acceptable truth. That is Anderson/Macnaughten speculating is it not?
Therefore Kosminski was NOT the Ripper. He may, on that evidence have been a killer of ONE woman. But he wasn't Jack the Ripper. Because there would be no evidence unless he confessed to all five, or six, or was confirmed by more witnesses. Correct?

best wishes Phil

Its all speculation, I dont think anyone will ever prove Kosminski was the Ripper. One can speculate it and even say one believes that he was, but at the end of the day Anderson only claimed 'Moral' proof...he never had enough to go to court.

But the facts should be counter balanced against those who believe the identity of the killer will never be known or some 'looney tune' theory.

Pirate

[DVV]

Because there would be no evidence unless he confessed to all five, or six, or was confirmed by more witnesses. Correct?

best wishes

Phil

Hi Phil,

for most of us Eddowes murderer was the one we call Jack the Ripper.

Amitiés,
David

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Phil!

Since I personally think, that JtR was an every-day-looking and behaving man outside, I don't think, that Kosminski could have been The Ripper!

All the best
Jukka