Kosminski..why the big secret ?

[Natalie Severn]

Then quite frankly if Aaron WAS masturbating in front of people that is what I would call shameless behaviour.There were actually lots of privies in Whitechapel where he could have been completely private.....and ,crucially, where nobody would have seen him.Moreover,I dont believe Jack the Ripper would have behaved like that.He was stealthy and clearly "blended in" with the crowd.

[Chris]

Then quite frankly if Aaron WAS masturbating in front of people that is what I would call shameless behaviour.

The point I'm making is that he wouldn't have had to masturbate in front of people for them to know about it!

[Natalie Severn]

The point I'm making is that he wouldn't have had to masturbate in front of people for them to know about it!

Well my point is that had he any care or consideration at all for his family ,he COULD have been discreet about it ,and if it really was as obsessive a habit as Anderson and Macnaghten imply,he could have sought help for it.But he comes across as being totally indifferent to other people. Its a mistake too to think that a person with paranoid schizophrenia would behave like that.The first thing to go out the window is the libido with that illness.

[Jeff Leahy]

The link between Schizophrenia and testosterone imbalance has been well established..just do a google search

Pirate

[Chris]

Well my point is that had he any care or consideration at all for his family ,he COULD have been discreet about it ,and if it really was as obsessive a habit as Anderson and Macnaghten imply,he could have sought help for it.But he comes across as being totally indifferent to other people.

Well, all we really know is that Jacob Cohen told Houchin that Aaron "practise[d] self-abuse". The rest is speculation.

[jason_c]

I draw attention once again to the reports of Kosminski's 1889 court appearance. From the little we know he looked "normal" and acted ordinarily. What was going on in the inner depths of his mind is another matter.

[robhouse]

Natalie, As Chris points out, there is every likelihood that Aaron had little or no privacy... the idea that he had a room of his own is not only pure speculation, but in my opinion, unlikely. I doubt it would have been easy for him to disguise such behavior. Given that self abuse is mentioned in his certification, I think that he probably masturbated to an extent that his family was bothered by it.

And again, while I think it unlikely that he masturbated in public... my point was that such behavior (exhibitionism) is not uncommon among a particular sub-type of serial killers. Dahmer certainly did not choose to masturbate in public simply because he there was a shortage of places where he could do it in private. He obviously did it because he got off on it. Again, such behavior (paraphilia) is not uncommon among lust murderers, as Dahmer clearly was, and as the Ripper clearly was also.

Rob H

[robhouse]

The following is from The Psychology of Lust Murder: Paraphilia, Sexual Killing, and Serial Homicide, by Catherine Purcell and Bruce A. Arrigo.

"After Dahmer's military discharge, he was unemployed, depressed, and relying heavily on drugs and alcohol to escape the loneliness of each day and experience relief from his inner torment. A few weeks following his return, Dahmer had a brush with the law. Refusing to leave a local Ramada Inn, he was taken into custody and charged with disorderly conduct, having an open container of licquor, and resisting arrest. Subsequently, on August 8, 1982, while attending the Wisconsin State Fair, Dahmer was fined $50 for drunk and disorderly conduct. More than 20 people alleged that Dahmer had indecently exposed himself. On September 8, 1986, there was another incident of exhibitionism. Dahmer was arrested for masturbating in front of two 12-year-old boys... in court, Dahmer confessed to this incident as well as to five other similar episodes."

I would also add that (there incidents notwithstanding) Dahmer was generally, as far as I understand, soft spoken and, as you say "blended in with the crowd."

Rob H

[robhouse]

Moreover:

"A high frequency of sexual dysfunction was reported by both schizophrenic groups of patients. Impairments in arousal items (erection) and orgasm during sex were reported mainly by the treated patients. Desire parameters were reduced in both schizophrenic groups, but reduction in the frequency of sexual thoughts was confined to the untreated one. The schizophrenic patients were more involved in masturbatory activity in comparison with the control subjects. Treated patients disclosed dissatisfaction with their sexual function."

Cited in Sexual dysfunction in male schizophrenic patients.
Aizenberg D, Zemishlany Z, Dorfman-Etrog P, Weizman A.

[DVV]

Hi all,

well, if it comes to masturbation, let's say that almost ALL serial killers do masturbate... Lust murderers do masturbate...
Nothing new...
Was Kosminski the Ripper because he was a toss**?
That, of course, would be pure tautology.

Amitiés,
David

[robhouse]

David,

Agreed. My only point was exhibitionism (or masturbating in public) is somewhat different from a psychological point of view than masturbation in private... specifically it is in the range of a criminal paraphilia. My point was that IF Kozminski actually engaged in exhibitionism, I think it would be more of an argument in favor of his being the Ripper than not. (I am not claiming he did do this, but I am just making a point...)

Rob H

[DVV]

Rob,

I see what you mean... Unfortunately, I'm afraid my English is too poor to express myself well at this point, cos we really find ourselves sur le fil du rasoir, here...

Let's say I'm not sure your point is valid (despite Dahmer's example), but it may be...
Sorry to lack words...!

Amitiés,
David

[robhouse]

C'est pas un probleme mon ami. Je parle francais un peu, mais malheurusement pas tres bien. Ciao.

Rob H

[DVV]

Merci beaucoup, Rob,

je vais me coucher avec le sourire...

Je voulais simplement dire que oui, l'exemple de Dahmer pouvait ajouter de la profondeur à la candidature de Kosminski (si Kosminski était effectivement un exhibitionniste), mais que d'un autre côté, l'exhibitionnisme pouvait tout aussi bien jouer en sa défaveur.

Encore une fois, hélas, tout dépend de l'image que chacun, presque malgré lui, se fait de Jack...

Amitiés,
David

[Natalie Severn]

Rob and David,
Actually Aaron Kosminski is not ever recorded by the hospital as behaving in a lewd manner or of any noticeable tendency to masturbate,but his family appear to have believed this habit of his had caused his insanity,judging from his admission record,which is the last occasion where it appears it was referred to.
But then ,there is no mention either ,of him exposing himself either in public or of ever being in trouble with the police,as in fact Dahmer was.I wasnt thinking of Kosminski "exposing" himself exactly,which is a very aggressive ,more or less violent act,but of being indifferent and inconsiderate towards his family and clearly continuing his habit ,however he did so, and despite their disapproval,which seems to have upset them a good deal.
The point I was trying to make though was that Kosminski"s untidy,unclean appearance,refusal to work etc and seeming indifference to socially acceptable behaviour, point more to someone with dementia or possibly "simple" schizophrenia,rather than paranoid schizophrenia.Also to note that doctors make a specific note of him not being a danger to others,on his admission which suggests he did not have the paranoid form of schizophrenia.
But Rob,I must say,that like David,I agree that what you have quoted is a cause for thoughtful consideration,so thanks for that.Your quote on Dahmer,particularly --- as well as the one on the sexual behaviour patterns of a control group of schizophrenics is definitely illuminating!