The apron was dropped...

[Harry D]

The apron was not dropped.
It was carefully placed on the ground, and at the time, was wrapped around a human kidney.
The location had been predetermined by JtR and the intended recipient of the organ.
The recipient removed the kidney from the apron, and placed it in a less conspicuous container (one without blood and faeces on it), and left the apron in situ.
The chalked message was written by Jack, with the intention it be read by the organ recipient.
The organ removal was a rush job, and the message is supposed to convey that this was not all Jack's fault - some of the blame lies with a few Jewish men...

I'll play.

Why was Jack harvesting a kidney for someone?
Was it just the kidney? What about the uterus?
Why leave such a cryptic message for the recipient?

[DJA]

[DJA]

The organ removal was a rush job, and the message is supposed to convey that this was not all Jack's fault - some of the blame lies with a few Jewish men...

Ah,the Jews from Berner Street with the blanket.

[Michael W Richards]

Pardon the jumping in of this 'heated' exchange, but this overlooks Edward Spooner's evidence at the inquest.

It corroborates Deimschutz's account and timings. He had no previous affiliation with the club. He's an independent witness. What would he gain from lying about when Diemschutz's was calling for the police with another man?

Where is this quote from?


It is also quite possible for Elizabeth Stride to have been in possession of some grapes but for them to be discarded without being eaten before her murder. Just because they weren't found on her person when her body was found doesn't necessarily mean she never had them, even if she didn't consume them.

Spooner said he was with the young woman outside the Beehive for "about 25 minutes" before he saw 2 jews...he never ever said he saw Louis and/or Issac K. And he arrived there after sauntering over a distance he could have covered in 5 minutes walking rapidly. He left the pub on Commercial at 12:00. His statement at the Inquest indicated that after being outside the Beehive for about 25 minutes, sometime between half past and 1am, he saw the jews.

Midnight leaving the pub, 10 minutes to walk to the Beehive. Stands there for about 25 minutes. So what time does that give you? I also see Spooner said when he arrived in the passageway about 15 people were already there.

Issa K, despite the fact some people want to interpret for themselves what the press actually meant to write..."A young Pole (born in Warsaw) who spoke english imperfectly, he was called by Louis Diemschutz into Dutfield's Yard to view the body of Elizabeth Stride. In a press interview, Kozebrodsky stated: "I was in this club last night. I came in about half-past six in the evening. About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was. When we had got outside he struck a match, and when we looked down on the ground we could see a long stream of blood. It was running down the gutter from the direction of the gate, and reached to the back door of the club. I should think there was blood in the gutter for a distance of five or six yards. I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers. The officers did not touch the body, but sent for a doctor. A doctor came, and an inspector arrived just afterwards. While the doctor was examining the body, I noticed that she had some grapes in her right hand and some sweets in her left. I saw a little bunch of flowers stuck above her right bosom".^[1]

Along with Diemschutz, Kozebrodsky was arrested during an affray at the International Working Men's Educational Club on 16th March 1889. Convicted of assaulting a police officer, Kozebrodsky was 'recommended to mercy' and ordered to pay a fine."

Isaac went for help just after coming to Louis's side at 12:40, he went alone, and he returned when Eagle did. Spooners time fits very well with that. And Gillens. And Heschbergs.

Sorry if using 4 witnesses who virtually confirm each of the 3 others stories with their own seems imprudent, particularly when all the statements without a shred of evidence to substantiate them are also available. I can help you with 1 point though....Louis provably did not arrive "precisely" at 1am as he said. At that moment Fanny was at her door...as she was from 12:50 until 1. Louis did not arrive at 1. So theres 1 lie. How many more are there? No-one but Issac K said he was sent out by himself before 1, the supposedly parties looking for help went after Louis says he arrived...1am.

Its beyond me how people can see the obvious truth and deny it anyway...I guess that explains how Trump got into office in the first place. "He cant possibly be as stupid as he seems"....., right? Well, he is. And 4 people saying they were by Liz at 12:40-12:45 isnt "fake news"...arriving "precisely at 1" is.

[etenguy]

The apron was not dropped.
It was carefully placed on the ground, and at the time, was wrapped around a human kidney.
The location had been predetermined by JtR and the intended recipient of the organ.
The recipient removed the kidney from the apron, and placed it in a less conspicuous container (one without blood and faeces on it), and left the apron in situ.
The chalked message was written by Jack, with the intention it be read by the organ recipient.
The organ removal was a rush job, and the message is supposed to convey that this was not all Jack's fault - some of the blame lies with a few Jewish men...

I have not come across this scenario before. What I don't understand is why the killer didn't just hand the organ to the recipient rather than leave it where some other person or passing animal might take it.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

I have not come across this scenario before. What I don't understand is why the killer didn't just hand the organ to the recipient rather than leave it where some other person or passing animal might take it.

Hi Etenguy,

NotBlamed has some interesting theories that Schwartz was actually at Mitre Square and about Lawende and Levy. You should read his "whip and a prod" thread, amongst his others, before questioning his theories. They take a bit of explaining. Especially the Jewish Blanket conspiracy. A favourite of DJA's.

Happy reading.

[DJA]

Very Interesting but stupid - YouTube

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Very Interesting but stupid - YouTube

Loved the Ren And Stimpy graphic. I can hear Ren analysing the Jewish Blanket theory and replying "you idiot" followed by a slap to the face.

[Curious Cat]

Spooner said he was with the young woman outside the Beehive for "about 25 minutes" before he saw 2 jews...he never ever said he saw Louis and/or Issac K. And he arrived there after sauntering over a distance he could have covered in 5 minutes walking rapidly. He left the pub on Commercial at 12:00. His statement at the Inquest indicated that after being outside the Beehive for about 25 minutes, sometime between half past and 1am, he saw the jews.

Midnight leaving the pub, 10 minutes to walk to the Beehive. Stands there for about 25 minutes. So what time does that give you? I also see Spooner said when he arrived in the passageway about 15 people were already there.

Issa K, despite the fact some people want to interpret for themselves what the press actually meant to write..."A young Pole (born in Warsaw) who spoke english imperfectly, he was called by Louis Diemschutz into Dutfield's Yard to view the body of Elizabeth Stride. In a press interview, Kozebrodsky stated: "I was in this club last night. I came in about half-past six in the evening. About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was. When we had got outside he struck a match, and when we looked down on the ground we could see a long stream of blood. It was running down the gutter from the direction of the gate, and reached to the back door of the club. I should think there was blood in the gutter for a distance of five or six yards. I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers. The officers did not touch the body, but sent for a doctor. A doctor came, and an inspector arrived just afterwards. While the doctor was examining the body, I noticed that she had some grapes in her right hand and some sweets in her left. I saw a little bunch of flowers stuck above her right bosom".^[1]

Along with Diemschutz, Kozebrodsky was arrested during an affray at the International Working Men's Educational Club on 16th March 1889. Convicted of assaulting a police officer, Kozebrodsky was 'recommended to mercy' and ordered to pay a fine."

Isaac went for help just after coming to Louis's side at 12:40, he went alone, and he returned when Eagle did. Spooners time fits very well with that. And Gillens. And Heschbergs.

Sorry if using 4 witnesses who virtually confirm each of the 3 others stories with their own seems imprudent, particularly when all the statements without a shred of evidence to substantiate them are also available. I can help you with 1 point though....Louis provably did not arrive "precisely" at 1am as he said. At that moment Fanny was at her door...as she was from 12:50 until 1. Louis did not arrive at 1. So theres 1 lie. How many more are there? No-one but Issac K said he was sent out by himself before 1, the supposedly parties looking for help went after Louis says he arrived...1am.

Its beyond me how people can see the obvious truth and deny it anyway...I guess that explains how Trump got into office in the first place. "He cant possibly be as stupid as he seems"....., right? Well, he is. And 4 people saying they were by Liz at 12:40-12:45 isnt "fake news"...arriving "precisely at 1" is.

Diemschutz was going by the time of the clock of the bakers he passed on the way back to the yard. The clock apparently indicated it was 1am.

Spooner only says he and his good lady quietly walked to the the spot outside the Beehive pub. He doesn't say which pub on Commercial Road they left at midnight and says nothing of their route to the Beehive. He says they were at that spot between 12:30am and 1am. The 25 minutes begins at the countback from which Diemshutz reaches Grove Street. He doesn't know the exact time.

Diemschutz says he ran to call for a policeman. Morris Eagle confirms Diemschutz went in the direction of Fairclough Street with another club member while he went towards Commercial Road, which is a further distance.

Diemschutz says he ran as far as Grove Street but gave up looking for the police as no officer was in sight and turned back round. Spooner confirms this as he sees two men, he identifies as being Jewish, arriving at that point while calling out for police to attend them. This is just after 1am so the estimated 25 minutes Spooner says he and his lady friend were stood outside the Beehive is 12:30am-12:40am. This time falls between 12:30am-1am, when Spooner reckons he and his good woman began their standing at that spot.

Spooner stops the men on their return and asks what is going on. On hearing there had been a murder he goes to Dutfield's Yard with Diemshutz.

PC Lamb says he was approached by two men at about 1am. He goes straight to Dutfield's Yard.

Mr Blackwell arrives at Dutfield's Yard at 1:16am, going by his watch. PC Lamb says Mr Blackwell arrived about 10-12 minutes after him. As Blackwell fixes the time by his watch then PC Lamb arrived about 1:05am. Meaning he was met by Eagle and his companion around the time he suggests - 1am. Spooner says he was at Dutfield's Yard about 4 minutes before PC Lamb arrived. Diemschutz says he came back to Dutfield's Yard with the man he met at Grove Street, which was Spooner. Spooner sees Diemschutz and his companion calling for police after they left Dutfield's Yard at about 1am. He goes straight back with them.

If Spooner's there 4 minutes before PC Lamb and PC Lamb is there 10 minutes before Mr Blackwell who arrives at 1:16am, what time does that give you for when Eagle and Diemschutz leave Dutfield's Yard in opposing directions to find the police to come to the crime scene?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Compared to you, yes.

It’s just that you appear to have forgotten to begin your post with “Its my opinion that....” I’m sure that you wouldn’t have wanted to give the impression that you were stating as a fact something that you couldn’t possibly know. Just trying to be helpful.

[Wickerman]

Diemschutz was going by the time of the clock of the bakers he passed on the way back to the yard. The clock apparently indicated it was 1am.

Spooner only says he and his good lady quietly walked to the the spot outside the Beehive pub. He doesn't say which pub on Commercial Road they left at midnight and says nothing of their route to the Beehive. He says they were at that spot between 12:30am and 1am. The 25 minutes begins at the countback from which Diemshutz reaches Grove Street. He doesn't know the exact time.

Diemschutz says he ran to call for a policeman. Morris Eagle confirms Diemschutz went in the direction of Fairclough Street with another club member while he went towards Commercial Road, which is a further distance.

Diemschutz says he ran as far as Grove Street but gave up looking for the police as no officer was in sight and turned back round. Spooner confirms this as he sees two men, he identifies as being Jewish, arriving at that point while calling out for police to attend them. This is just after 1am so the estimated 25 minutes Spooner says he and his lady friend were stood outside the Beehive is 12:30am-12:40am. This time falls between 12:30am-1am, when Spooner reckons he and his good woman began their standing at that spot.

Spooner stops the men on their return and asks what is going on. On hearing there had been a murder he goes to Dutfield's Yard with Diemshutz.

Excellent, and in an interview with Kozebrodski in the Evening News, he told them he ran for a policeman in the same direction as Diemschitz:

"...I immediately went for a policeman, and ran in the direction of Grove-street, but could not find one."


And, in the Times, the reporter writes about Diemschitz & Kozebrodski, together:

"A member of the club named Kozebrodski returned with Diemsschütz into the court, and the former struck a match while the latter lifted the body up. It was at once apparent that the woman was dead. The body was still warm, and the clothes enveloping it were wet from the recent rain. The heart had ceased to beat. Both men ran off without delay to find a policeman".

The man who accompanied Diemschitz as far as Grove street, was Kozebrodski.

For some reason Michael has stuck his fingers in his ears, and his head in the sand, refusing to listen to reason.

[Joshua Rogan]

Spooner only says he and his good lady quietly walked to the the spot outside the Beehive pub. He doesn't say which pub on Commercial Road they left at midnight and says nothing of their route to the Beehive.

Actually, he does (indirectly), according to the Morning Advertiser inquest report;

"We had been in a beershop at the corner of Settles-street, Commercial-road, and remained till closing time. I stood at the top of Christian-street for a few minutes, and then walked down the street. We had been standing there about 25 minutes, I suppose, when two Jews came running along."

The beer shop on that corner of Commercial Road and Settles Street (opposite Christian St) was the "Gloucester Arms".
Incidentally, a little further north up Settles St was the Bricklayers Arms, where Stride had been sighted earlier.

[DJA]

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I'll play.

Why was Jack harvesting a kidney for someone?
Was it just the kidney? What about the uterus?
Why leave such a cryptic message for the recipient?

The uterus too. This helps to make my point...

Dr Brown: The lining membrane over the uterus was cut through. The womb was cut through horizontally, leaving a stump of three quarters of an inch. The rest of the womb had been taken away with some of the ligaments.

So at least one mistake was made.
The chalked message is owing to the effects of time pressure - it has nothing to do with communicating with the police, or with the Jewish people as a whole.
If communication with the police was desired, he could just write them or a letter, or send them a postcard.

The message is not so cryptic when considering the state of the organs and the condition of the apron (smeared with feculent matter).
However, it is cryptic enough that the organ recipient would get the point, without giving away any clues to the police.
The police are not meant to make sense of the message.

Now back at Mitre Square...
Jack cuts away a large section of Eddowes apron - about half.
He leaves MS with her left kidney and most of her uterus.
So what does he do with the organs and apron half?

1. Stuffs them into various pockets
2. Puts the organs into a small bag he has on his person, carries the bag and pockets the apron
3. Wraps the organs in the apron, and carries the apron bundle

#1 doesn't make much sense, but seems to be what many people implicitly assume.
Maybe it is supposed in this case that the apron is only meant for marking the chalked message. It seems rather large for that purpose alone.
#2 would probably mean the purpose of the apron is the same as in #1, but why would he go to such trouble and then leave a message so cryptic that nobody understands it?
#3 perhaps make the most sense, but then who is the recipient of the organs? A collector, perhaps?
#3 is obviously suggesting that the organs have been removed from the apron, prior to the apron's discovery by the police.
This option leads fairly logically to the notion that the message on the wall is meant for whoever took the organs away.
The ¾" tall text supports this notion too - it is not graffito.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Ah,the Jews from Berner Street with the blanket.

No. The atheist Jews at Berner St are his own people.
No way would he implicate these people in his crimes.
The Jewes referred to by the chalked message are the men who briefly stood outside the Imperial Club - Lawende, Levy & Harris.
Briefly, but long enough to cost Jack precious time.
The message relates to things crucial to Jack's activities.
At 2am on Sep 30, 1888, Jack the Ripper is not thinking about politics.