The apron was dropped...

[caz]

Again you miss the point, I suppose I have to be more granular for you to follow along.....Polly and Annie were placed on the backs with the abdomens exposed and mutilation visible. Liz Wasnt even on her back, she was on her side, and had her legs together, curled up in toward her.

So the men who found Polly and Annie knew what had happened, you on the other hand, like to wonder further.

What the hell does any of that mean, Michael, in the real world?

Did the club members say to themselves on seeing Stride: "Ah, the men who found Polly and Annie on their backs instantly saw they had been mutilated [in Polly's case? Cross saw this? Paul? Dr Llewellyn, before she was taken to the mortuary?], but this one's on her side with her legs together so she definitely has no other wounds, even though they wouldn't be visible if she did, and this was therefore another man's work, probably someone from the club, so we'll call it 'another' murder to pull the wool over the eyes of the doctors and the police. Even when they examine the body and find exactly what we found, they'll simply take our word for it that Polly and Annie's killer has struck again - ha ha. That'll keep 'em away from our door."

Hope this doesn't make you more snooty than ever, Michael, but would it not have been a tad more effective if your cunning Jews had thought to turn Stride onto her back and slash at her abdomen, before drawing attention to "another" murder?

Love,

Caz
X

[Michael W Richards]

And they could see her throat was cut.

Hio Scott,

If Jack had become famous using a Blunderbuss, and one was used on Liz, Id see the murder weapon as a relevant factor for assigning Jack murders. I dont see that with a knife and a cut throat. 3 women were killed that way that night, slit throat by knife, but only Kate has indications that Jack may have been out.

[Scott Nelson]

Liz Wasnt even on her back, she was on her side, and had her legs together, curled up in toward her.

And they could see her throat was cut.

[Michael W Richards]

That's no answer. Nobody seeing Stride lying there would be rummaging about looking for signs of other injuries, so the point is they could not possibly have formed any opinion on whether or not she had sustained more than a single throat wound. How would they have ascertained at that early stage that this murder was unlike the previous three? And how would it then help to call it "another" murder, as if that would stop the police sniffing round the club looking for a potential suspect for this and all the recent murders?

Love,

Caz
X

Again you miss the point, I suppose I have to be more granular for you to follow along.....Polly and Annie were placed on the backs with the abdomens exposed and mutilation visible. Liz Wasnt even on her back, she was on her side, and had her legs together, curled up in toward her.

So the men who found Polly and Annie knew what had happened, you on the other hand, like to wonder further.

[caz]

Because as I understand it there was no-one at that club at that time who was suspected in any way of being the phantom menace at large. So "another" refers to another by that same phantom....out there in the streets, off the club grounds. And the amount of knowledgeable people that believe Marthas murder is connected to the Ripper crimes ... is not very many at all.

Not sure what this has to do with the price of fish. Nobody had the first clue who had murdered the previous three victims, nor how many killers were responsible. But that's irrelevant. Everyone knew what "another" referred to: the finding of a fourth female fatality since the beginning of August.

This really couldn't be any simpler, so why complicate it by imagining that the Jews at the club were lying about this being another murder, having somehow decided between them that it wasn't?

They were merely stating the bleedin' obvious, and were in absolutely no position to judge if Stride was murdered by someone who had killed before.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

The man that found Polly knew she was mutilated, he pulled her skirts back down. The first person to find Stride found her on her side, with knees drawn in, skirt down to her boottops, and bleeding heavily from a single cut to her throat. There would be no reason to suspect abdominal wounds based on that. But you already knew that really.

That's no answer. Nobody seeing Stride lying there would be rummaging about looking for signs of other injuries, so the point is they could not possibly have formed any opinion on whether or not she had sustained more than a single throat wound. How would they have ascertained at that early stage that this murder was unlike the previous three? And how would it then help to call it "another" murder, as if that would stop the police sniffing round the club looking for a potential suspect for this and all the recent murders?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Well, it's a bit irrelevant isn't it? It doesn't make any difference to the overall and varied ideas around Berner St. The talk all over London is of women murdered in the street, I'd be curious as to how off the scale logical someone would be to find a murdered woman and shout "Police! Another woman is murdered, but not necessarily does this make anyone at all think about what's been dominating the news, in fact, I hadn't recalled there had been other murders, but now I think about it, the term 'another' probably isn't appropriate, it'll give the impression women are being killed with a disproportionate regularity in the East End"

Or less sarcastically, what else would people say?

Love it, Al. I was thinking of posting something along these exact lines, but I'm glad I didn't now, considering how Michael feels about my posts as it is.

Love,

Caz
X

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Don't forget this...

Inspector Chandler: On Saturday morning about ten minutes past six I was on duty in Commercial-street, at the corner of Hanbury-street. I saw several men running up the street. They beckoned to me, and one of them said, "Another woman has been murdered."

[Michael W Richards]

I meant to add...

How would describing it as "another" murder have helped to deflect the blame away from anyone associated with the club? Surely, that would have been just asking for the police to concentrate their search for the killer of up to four women, including Stride, on the club and its associates. Why would the presumption be that whoever killed the others was not associated with the club?

Love,

Caz
X

Because as I understand it there was no-one at that club at that time who was suspected in any way of being the phantom menace at large. So "another" refers to another by that same phantom....out there in the streets, off the club grounds. And the amount of knowledgeable people that believe Marthas murder is connected to the Ripper crimes ... is not very many at all.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

I meant to add...

How would describing it as "another" murder have helped to deflect the blame away from anyone associated with the club? Surely, that would have been just asking for the police to concentrate their search for the killer of up to four women, including Stride, on the club and its associates. Why would the presumption be that whoever killed the others was not associated with the club?

Love,

Caz
X

Well, it's a bit irrelevant isn't it? It doesn't make any difference to the overall and varied ideas around Berner St. The talk all over London is of women murdered in the street, I'd be curious as to how off the scale logical someone would be to find a murdered woman and shout "Police! Another woman is murdered, but not necessarily does this make anyone at all think about what's been dominating the news, in fact, I hadn't recalled there had been other murders, but now I think about it, the term 'another' probably isn't appropriate, it'll give the impression women are being killed with a disproportionate regularity in the East End"

Or less sarcastically, what else would people say?

[Michael W Richards]

How did they know 'almost immediately', Michael? Did they check under Stride's clothing, before Dr Blackwell arrived at 1.16am and pronounced her dead? Remember, Dr Llewellyn didn't even know Nichols had her abdomen mutilated until her body was removed to the mortuary. Would Dr Blackwell have told everyone at the club that Stride only had her throat cut, even if he could be sure at that stage?

"Another" murder doesn't presume 'far too much'. It was what it was: the fourth knife murder of a vulnerable woman out at night in the vicinity within the last eight weeks.

Not having a clue who was responsible for any of them, nor the extent of this one's injuries compared with the others, how could anyone at the club have concluded, more or less on the spur of the moment, that a) this had no connection with any of the three recent murders and was by a different hand, and b) they had better suggest a connection, to safeguard their own interests? This simply doesn't add up, Michael.

Love,

Caz
X

The man that found Polly knew she was mutilated, he pulled her skirts back down. The first person to find Stride found her on her side, with knees drawn in, skirt down to her boottops, and bleeding heavily from a single cut to her throat. There would be no reason to suspect abdominal wounds based on that. But you already knew that really.

[caz]

I meant to add...

How would describing it as "another" murder have helped to deflect the blame away from anyone associated with the club? Surely, that would have been just asking for the police to concentrate their search for the killer of up to four women, including Stride, on the club and its associates. Why would the presumption be that whoever killed the others was not associated with the club?

Love,

Caz
X

[Abby Normal]

Woman goes missing.
Her body found in the Thames.
Last seen standing outside a Socialist/Anarchist club, after midnight.
Said to have been recently working amongst the Jews.

No problem for the club?

nope.

[caz]

I wasnt ignoring you Caz, its just that based on the physical evidence they knew almost immediately that the woman had not had her abdomen mutilated, which to that point is one of the only unique characteristics shown in prior murders. A woman has been murdered would be absolutely an appropriate thing to shout, "another" murder presumes far too much based on a single cut, unless of course it was intended to suggest another woman in general. I dont believe thats the case here.

I did note we agree upon placement vs dropped Caz, ...(once in while we meet in the middle)....although we differ on the ambiguity of the message.

How did they know 'almost immediately', Michael? Did they check under Stride's clothing, before Dr Blackwell arrived at 1.16am and pronounced her dead? Remember, Dr Llewellyn didn't even know Nichols had her abdomen mutilated until her body was removed to the mortuary. Would Dr Blackwell have told everyone at the club that Stride only had her throat cut, even if he could be sure at that stage?

"Another" murder doesn't presume 'far too much'. It was what it was: the fourth knife murder of a vulnerable woman out at night in the vicinity within the last eight weeks.

Not having a clue who was responsible for any of them, nor the extent of this one's injuries compared with the others, how could anyone at the club have concluded, more or less on the spur of the moment, that a) this had no connection with any of the three recent murders and was by a different hand, and b) they had better suggest a connection, to safeguard their own interests? This simply doesn't add up, Michael.

Love,

Caz
X

[NotBlamedForNothing]

if she was killed on their property and club member/s were involved (and this is even assuming they would all agree to conspire a cover up)they had all the time in the world to clean up, get rid of the body---they wouldnt even need to say anything to the police. "nope none of us heard a thing or know anything about it " end of.

That they would come up with this cockamamy conspiracy, instantaneously no less, is ridiculous on the face of it.

Woman goes missing.
Her body found in the Thames.
Last seen standing outside a Socialist/Anarchist club, after midnight.
Said to have been recently working amongst the Jews.

No problem for the club?