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  • NotBlamedForNothing
    replied
    Originally posted by IchabodCrane View Post

    Thanks for your questions, i am trying to answer them below:

    Are you sure it weren't someone(s) from within the Jewish community putting a clear spotlight on society? -> you mean a member of the Jewish community wanting to highlight that the serial killer on the loose was a Jew and thereby trying to cause a mob unrest against the Jews? That is quite a stretch for my imagination. Much more likely it was the murderer trying to divert suspicion as far away from himself as possible
    No, I meant more along the lines of G.B. Shaw's Blood Money to Whitechapel...

    SIR,-- Will you allow me to make a comment on the success of the Whitechapel murderer in calling attention for a moment to the social question?

    I very much doubt Shaw meant Jack was literally a social reformer though, although I'm not sure.

    As for your point about the murderer diverting suspicion away from himself, I'm not sure what you mean.
    He can write on that wall as much as he likes - however, he has the bloody apron! I don't understand your logic.

    If you are sure, how well did they succeed in what you suggest? -> had the graffito not been erased, there could have been unrest and a clear conviction in the public opinion that the killer was a Jew, which the murderer was not
    Same problem as above - the logic of the killer with the apron, blaming Jewish men, is short-circuiting.

    Did the double event/graffito cause significant social unrest? -> it did not because it was erased. it could have caused unrest had it not been erased.
    We can actually put that notion to the test:

    Did the text of the graffito end up in the papers? Yes
    Did the publication of the graffito cause social unrest? No

    When what 'could' or 'might' happen is used as the basis for making important decisions, almost anything can be justified.

    Why wasn't the murderer seemingly concerned with politics in the case of the other murders? -> he was simply an opportunist. the double event took place shortly after heated public debate / suspicion that the killer might have been a Jewish butcher
    A few weeks later.
    The problem for the notion that the murderer is trying to divert suspicion, in the case of the DE and GSG, is that the other murders don't support this.
    If the murderer is an opportunist, he behaves as such, and therefore his diversionary plan is going to fail immediately, due to a lack of consistency in his approach.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post

    Hi Caroline,

    I doubt that the writer cared one iota how many passers-by would stop to read it. It could have been an exercise in penmanship or a simple form of self expression.
    lol. youre kidding right?

    Leave a comment:


  • Scott Nelson
    replied
    Originally posted by caz View Post
    ...given that the message was both small and ambiguous? How many passers-by would have read it and 'got' the message, before the police found it and erased it for fear that it would cause a public disturbance, despite the fact that the apron piece was removed before that could have happened?
    Hi Caroline,

    I doubt that the writer cared one iota how many passers-by would stop to read it. It could have been an exercise in penmanship or a simple form of self expression.

    Leave a comment:


  • DJA
    replied
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

    Maybe. maybe not. "the place where I usually stay was closed"-hutch referring to the Victoria home.
    You have been around long enough to know Hutchinson only used the Victoria Working Men's Home to hold court with the press.

    Where did you lift your quote from?
    Trust it wasn't "The Star"

    Leave a comment:


  • IchabodCrane
    replied
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    Do you suppose that joke about Leather Apron gave him real fits (if you take my meaning)?

    Synagogue parade - A procession of Jewish unemployed and sweaters' victims will be held on Saturday, March 16, 1889, and will proceed to the Great Synagogue, where the Chief Rabbi will deliver a sermon to the unemployed and sweaters' victims. The procession will start at half-past twelve from 40, Berners [sic] Street, Commercial Road, E. We demand work to buy bread, and the hours of labour to be eight per day. Come in large numbers, and bring your friends with you.

    Are you sure it weren't someone(s) from within the Jewish community putting a clear spotlight on society?
    If you are sure, how well did they succeed in what you suggest?
    Did the double event/graffito cause significant social unrest?
    Why wasn't the murderer seemingly concerned with politics in the case of the other murders?
    Thanks for your questions, i am trying to answer them below:

    Are you sure it weren't someone(s) from within the Jewish community putting a clear spotlight on society? -> you mean a member of the Jewish community wanting to highlight that the serial killer on the loose was a Jew and thereby trying to cause a mob unrest against the Jews? That is quite a stretch for my imagination. Much more likely it was the murderer trying to divert suspicion as far away from himself as possible
    If you are sure, how well did they succeed in what you suggest? -> had the graffito not been erased, there could have been unrest and a clear conviction in the public opinion that the killer was a Jew, which the murderer was not
    Did the double event/graffito cause significant social unrest? -> it did not because it was erased. it could have caused unrest had it not been erased.
    Why wasn't the murderer seemingly concerned with politics in the case of the other murders? -> he was simply an opportunist. the double event took place shortly after heated public debate / suspicion that the killer might have been a Jewish butcher

    Leave a comment:


  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by DJA View Post

    Doubt anyone really reckons Hutchinson was living there 40 days before the other "Mary Ann Kelly"s demise.
    That's if he lived there at all.

    Thanks just the same Buddy.
    Maybe. maybe not. "the place where I usually stay was closed"-hutch referring to the Victoria home.

    Leave a comment:


  • NotBlamedForNothing
    replied
    Originally posted by IchabodCrane View Post

    Bravo! I fully support these conclusions. As was pointed out in many previous threads, the double event simply contains too many references to Jewish locations to be coincidental.
    1) Dutfields Yard and the international working mens eductional club
    2) The great synagogue at Mitre square (most obvious spontaneous choice after plan A failed)
    3) Goulston Street (already planned to drop hint there on way back home)
    The logical conclusion is that the Ripper, influenced by the newspaper reports about Leather Apron, set out to put a clear spotlight on the Jewish community that night.
    The inference is, that the Ripper himself was not a Jew. Moreover the grammar of the GSG suggests that his native language was French (Les juifs ne sont pas des gens qui seront blames pour rien - makes perfect sense in French)
    Do you suppose that joke about Leather Apron gave him real fits (if you take my meaning)?

    Synagogue parade - A procession of Jewish unemployed and sweaters' victims will be held on Saturday, March 16, 1889, and will proceed to the Great Synagogue, where the Chief Rabbi will deliver a sermon to the unemployed and sweaters' victims. The procession will start at half-past twelve from 40, Berners [sic] Street, Commercial Road, E. We demand work to buy bread, and the hours of labour to be eight per day. Come in large numbers, and bring your friends with you.

    Are you sure it weren't someone(s) from within the Jewish community putting a clear spotlight on society?
    If you are sure, how well did they succeed in what you suggest?
    Did the double event/graffito cause significant social unrest?
    Why wasn't the murderer seemingly concerned with politics in the case of the other murders?

    Leave a comment:


  • IchabodCrane
    replied
    Originally posted by DJA View Post

    Doubt anyone really reckons Hutchinson was living there 40 days before the other "Mary Ann Kelly"s demise.
    That's if he lived there at all.

    Thanks just the same Buddy.
    Since we don't have any information on his whereabouts on that weekend, we cannot rule it out either. For all we know he would have been a regular visitor to the area on weekends.

    Neither Joseph Barnett nor George Hutchinson were French though... that is what puzzles me most about this case. They are such perfect suspects otherwise
    Last edited by IchabodCrane; Yesterday, 02:32 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • DJA
    replied
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

    hutch
    Doubt anyone really reckons Hutchinson was living there 40 days before the other "Mary Ann Kelly"s demise.
    That's if he lived there at all.

    Thanks just the same Buddy.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by DJA View Post
    Your point being?
    hutch

    Leave a comment:


  • caz
    replied
    Originally posted by c.d. View Post

    Hello Caz,

    I think you hit the nail on the head. But wouldn't that apply regardless of whether the message was pro Jewish or anti-Semitic? Hence the problem.

    c.d.
    Fair point, c.d.

    Of course, my opinion is that the message was written by someone whose brain was wired differently from most people's, so happily I don't need to try and read anything rational into it.

    Love,

    Caz
    X

    Leave a comment:


  • DJA
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
    Id have to look that up, but I dont need to. The date is irrelevant to the argument.
    The date is relevant.

    Morris's letters are well documented.

    Doubt your spin has any truth in it.

    Leave a comment:


  • caz
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

    Ive been ignoring what can be obviously addressed, Im not selling anything therefore I dont need to pander. A comment like Spooner being "muddle headed" is an example. There is no evidence that is the case at all. As for Gillen, I believe he used the quote himself when Gillen is mentioned...you want me to do what with that question? Hosch(esch)berg, Spooner, Kozebrodksi and a member named Gillen makes 4 doesnt it?

    As for arguing why a Socialist Club, which neighbors felt had "low people" hanging round and with a reputation among local Police as an "anarchist" club...a fact which is substantiated in a letter William Morris sends to Woolf Wess declining an invitation to speak there due to their reputation...why a discovery of murder on their property with only the men still in attendance on the property, would result in the clubs closure.....im sorry but the bleeding obvious is the bleeding obvious.

    The same men attacked Police with clubs in 6 months.
    Serial killer Levi Bellfield worked as a security guard and nightclub bouncer. I doubt that any establishment where he worked would have been at risk of closure and job losses if the people in charge there had suspected him of murder and rightly turned him in, saving more young women from the same fate. They'd have deserved medals, not condemnation. Imagine if it was found out later that they had conspired to protect the bastard, as one of their own, and deflect the blame elsewhere. Now that would have had bleeding obvious repercussions for all concerned.

    Love,

    Caz
    X

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael W Richards
    replied
    Id have to look that up, but I dont need to. The date is irrelevant to the argument.

    Leave a comment:


  • DJA
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

    The letter was addressed to Wess, it was presented by his decendant, and contained exactly what I said it did. Your Trumpesque rewriting of fact isnt appreciated, but nor is it noteworthy.
    What was the date of the letter?

    Leave a comment:

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