The apron was dropped...

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I have not come across this scenario before. What I don't understand is why the killer didn't just hand the organ to the recipient rather than leave it where some other person or passing animal might take it.

Perhaps Jack arrived early, or the recipient was late.
Perhaps the recipient spotted a policeman, and waited a while longer before entering the building (was the apron not seen until it was unfolded?).
Perhaps a direct handover was deemed too risky.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Loved the Ren And Stimpy graphic. I can hear Ren analysing the Jewish Blanket theory and replying "you idiot" followed by a slap to the face.

Like the apron near the stairwell, the blanket theory was discarded.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It’s just that you appear to have forgotten to begin your post with “Its my opinion that....” I’m sure that you wouldn’t have wanted to give the impression that you were stating as a fact something that you couldn’t possibly know. Just trying to be helpful.

You're right, and sorry for being a smart arse.
But then would it be fair for me to suggest that the title of this thread should be?...

It's my opinion that the apron was dropped...

[DJA]

The Jewes referred to by the chalked message are the men who briefly stood outside the Imperial Club - Lawende, Levy & Harris.
Briefly, but long enough to cost Jack precious time.

That left Jack ~ 9 minutes to get Eddowes across Mitre Square,strangle her,do what he did and skidaddle.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

That left Jack ~ 9 minutes to get Eddowes across Mitre Square,strangle her,do what he did and skidaddle.

Almost enough time to do it right.

So what contained the organs when Jack left the square?

• pockets
• a bag
• the apron

What is the purpose of the apron, if not to hold the organs?
If Jack did not chalk the message, then why cut the apron in half and take one half away?
Was it just for wiping his hands, on his way home? How risky would that be?

[DJA]

Almost enough time to do it right.

So what contained the organs when Jack left the square?

• pockets
• a bag
• the apron

What is the purpose of the apron, if not to hold the organs?
If Jack did not chalk the message, then why cut the apron in half and take one half away?
Was it just for wiping his hands, on his way home? How risky would that be?

I doubt he left the Square with the organs.

The apron was a red herring to draw attention away from 6 Mitre Street.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Like the apron near the stairwell, the blanket theory was discarded.

But not the Schwartz at Mitre Square?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I doubt he left the Square with the organs.

The apron was a red herring to draw attention away from 6 Mitre Street.

So where did they go? They weren't left by the body.

I don't see how the apron managed to narrow the investigation to the point of excluding other useful info.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

But not the Schwartz at Mitre Square?

I'm sorry, I tell a partial lie.
The blanket story has a serious hole in, but I managed to repair it.
Actually, the solution came to me in a flash, but I'll leave that for another thread.

Schwartz at Mitre Square is still go, but it's not as simple as "Israel Schwartz is JtR".

[miakaal4]

The problem with the apron and the writing is that we have to base theory on statements made by characters who may have had good cause to lie. PC Long for example. Not seen by Halse and didn't see apron until 002.40-55? Could he have skivved off the previous beat so could not have seen apron if it was there earlier. He was sacked a few months later for being drunk on duty...I think.

[Michael W Richards]

If Spooner's there 4 minutes before PC Lamb and PC Lamb is there 10 minutes before Mr Blackwell who arrives at 1:16am, what time does that give you for when Eagle and Diemschutz leave Dutfield's Yard in opposing directions to find the police to come to the crime scene?

I wont address the beginning of this post because as I said there is ample corroborative evidence to contradict all those supposed single witness "facts", but on the above I can only say with any confidence that Eagle and Diemshutz and Spooner and Kozebrodski, and Gillen, and Heschberg, and a dozen or so other members/visitors, were by Liz Stride as she lay dying in the passageway. And that 4 of these men gave stories that included those facts and times which vary by a little as 5 minutes, all between 12:40-12:45.

Overwhelming majority of witnesses corroborate that timing, and another witness to the street at "precisely" 1am did not see any cart or horse or Diemshitz arrive at or before 1am, nor people on the street other than the young couple and Goldstein at 12:55.

Maybe I see all this clearly because I see Liz Strides murder as likely being done by someone at the club that night, and that I see her murder completely unrelated to an alleged Ripper crime later that night. In the city. So I have no problem with supporting evidence for the crime...I use the majority of matching accounts, and I see the GSG as a reference to Jews evading Blame as being perfectly clear.

[Curious Cat]

Actually, he does (indirectly), according to the Morning Advertiser inquest report;

"We had been in a beershop at the corner of Settles-street, Commercial-road, and remained till closing time. I stood at the top of Christian-street for a few minutes, and then walked down the street. We had been standing there about 25 minutes, I suppose, when two Jews came running along."

The beer shop on that corner of Commercial Road and Settles Street (opposite Christian St) was the "Gloucester Arms".
Incidentally, a little further north up Settles St was the Bricklayers Arms, where Stride had been sighted earlier.

Ah, of course, it would be in one of the articles I'm yet to fully read that that snippet of information would be residing. Thank you for the correction.

Does Spooner assume it was exactly midnight due to the beershop closing or did the pubs and beershops tend to close on the dot of midnight as a rule?

[Curious Cat]

I wont address the beginning of this post because as I said there is ample corroborative evidence to contradict all those supposed single witness "facts", but on the above I can only say with any confidence that Eagle and Diemshutz and Spooner and Kozebrodski, and Gillen, and Heschberg, and a dozen or so other members/visitors, were by Liz Stride as she lay dying in the passageway. And that 4 of these men gave stories that included those facts and times which vary by a little as 5 minutes, all between 12:40-12:45.

Overwhelming majority of witnesses corroborate that timing, and another witness to the street at "precisely" 1am did not see any cart or horse or Diemshitz arrive at or before 1am, nor people on the street other than the young couple and Goldstein at 12:55.

Maybe I see all this clearly because I see Liz Strides murder as likely being done by someone at the club that night, and that I see her murder completely unrelated to an alleged Ripper crime later that night. In the city. So I have no problem with supporting evidence for the crime...I use the majority of matching accounts, and I see the GSG as a reference to Jews evading Blame as being perfectly clear.

If this is your argument then please post all quotes and all their sources together to be examined properly.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Diemschutz was going by the time of the clock of the bakers he passed on the way back to the yard. The clock apparently indicated it was 1am.

Prior to the inquest, LD said this to the press:

I am a traveler in the common jewellery trade, and work only for myself. I have also been the steward for the International Working Men's Club for between six and seven years, and I live on the premises of the club. For some time I have been in the habit of going to Westow Hill, at the Crystal Palace, every Saturday, in order to sell my goods at the market which is there. I got back this Sunday morning about one o'clock, and drove up to our club-room gate in my pony cart.

No reference to a clock.
No 'exactly one o'clock'.
Diemschitz didn't see the clock at precisely 1am, until the inquest.

Diemschutz says he ran as far as Grove Street but gave up looking for the police as no officer was in sight and turned back round.

Common sense suggests Commercial Road would have been the first and only place necessary to search for police, but the search does not start there. Why?

Spooner confirms this as he sees two men, he identifies as being Jewish, arriving at that point while calling out for police to attend them. This is just after 1am so the estimated 25 minutes Spooner says he and his lady friend were stood outside the Beehive is 12:30am-12:40am. This time falls between 12:30am-1am, when Spooner reckons he and his good woman began their standing at that spot.

Spooner estimated standing outside the Beehive for half an hour. He just quoted the wrong half-hour timespan. He meant 12:00-12:30 - the half hour after the pubs closed.
When asked specifically, he says he arrived at the club at about 12:35. This is sensational, and jibes well with Kozebrodky's 12:40 estimate.
What you're suggesting by saying that Spooner and lady friend stood outside the pub between 12:30-40, is that 10 minutes was perceived as 25 or 30 - a pretty wild mis-estimate.
Of course, Spooner's 12:35 estimate is too early - he has only been onsite for 6 or 7 mins (he examines the victim briefly, before standing-by for about 5 mins) when Lamb arrives at 1am, but the point is that everyone who estimates a time of arrival prior to Lamb's, places that estimate well before 1am - not even close to 1am, let alone after 1am, which Diemschitz' claimed arrival time would dictate was a necessity.

Mr Blackwell arrives at Dutfield's Yard at 1:16am, going by his watch. PC Lamb says Mr Blackwell arrived about 10-12 minutes after him. As Blackwell fixes the time by his watch then PC Lamb arrived about 1:05am. Meaning he was met by Eagle and his companion around the time he suggests - 1am. Spooner says he was at Dutfield's Yard about 4 minutes before PC Lamb arrived. Diemschutz says he came back to Dutfield's Yard with the man he met at Grove Street, which was Spooner. Spooner sees Diemschutz and his companion calling for police after they left Dutfield's Yard at about 1am. He goes straight back with them.

If Spooner's there 4 minutes before PC Lamb and PC Lamb is there 10 minutes before Mr Blackwell who arrives at 1:16am, what time does that give you for when Eagle and Diemschutz leave Dutfield's Yard in opposing directions to find the police to come to the crime scene?

Are you aware that Ed Spooner is not the first non-club member to see the body?

[ES1001] Abraham Heshburg, living at 28, Berner-street, said:- "I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter. In the gateway, two or three people had collected, and when I got there I saw a short, dark young woman lying on the ground, with a gash between four and five inches long in her throat. I should think she was from twenty-five to twenty-eight years of age. Her head was towards the north wall. She had a black dress on, with a bunch of flowers pinned on the breast. In her hand there a little piece of paper, containing five or six cachous. The body was not found by Koster, but by a man whose name who a do not know - a man who goes out with a pony and barrow, and lives up the archway, where he was going, I believe, to put up his barrow on coming home from market. He thought it was his wife at first, but when he found her safe at home he got a candle and found this woman. He never touched it till the doctors had been sent for. The little gate is always open, or, at all events, always unfastened."

After Diemschitz and other club members, Stride's body is witnessed by non-club members in this order:

Joseph Koster > Abraham Heshburg > Edward Spooner > PC Lamb

Lamb is onsite at 1am, and Spooner beats him there by at least 5 minutes.
So to answer you're question...

... what time does that give you for when Eagle and Diemschutz leave Dutfield's Yard in opposing directions to find the police to come to the crime scene?

Oh, I reckon about 12:47 or 12:48.
In other words, just a couple of minutes after the murder at 12:45.

[Joshua Rogan]

Ah, of course, it would be in one of the articles I'm yet to fully read that that snippet of information would be residing. Thank you for the correction.

Does Spooner assume it was exactly midnight due to the beershop closing or did the pubs and beershops tend to close on the dot of midnight as a rule?

Interesting question, and I'm not sure there is a definitive answer. Licencing laws do seem to have been fairly well enforced at the time, and given that there were a couple of police patrols passing this beershop, as well as a fixed point policeman just down the road, I would expect it to have been fairly punctual.

As I understand it though, the general licencing hours ended at midnight in London, but individual pubs could apply for and be granted an extension if they could demonstrate a local need (eg nearby theatres, markets or trades carried on at all hours). For example, at Nichols' inquest, horse-slaughterer Henry Tom(p)kins said he went to get a drink at about twenty minutes past midnight and returned to work at one am, saying "We always go out to get a drink before the houses close." So presumably at least one pub in the vicinity had had it's licencing hours extended. Whether the Gloucester Arms or the Beehive had such an extension, I couldn't say.
Regardless of entensions, all licenced premesis had to remain closed between 1am and 2am.

So the upshot is, I think, that closing times could vary. But presumably, local people (and obviously the police) would know what time their locals closed. Extended licencing hours, if granted, had to be displayed outside the establishment.