The apron was dropped...

[Michael W Richards]

You appear to be forgetting that the gates into the yard were open - which wasn't usually the case - so the yard, side of the club and printing room at the back were accessible to anyone passing the site. Members of the club would not have been the only ones with accessibility to the yard at the time of the murder.

The one on the left from the street was. Eagle said he stayed close to the club wall. Fanny Mortimer was at her door...."almost the whole time" ...her words, between 12:30 and 1am, she saw the young couple, and she saw Goldstein at 12:55...she did not see or hear anything else before 1.

[Curious Cat]

The one on the left from the street was. Eagle said he stayed close to the club wall. Fanny Mortimer was at her door...."almost the whole time" ...her words, between 12:30 and 1am, she saw the young couple, and she saw Goldstein at 12:55...she did not see or hear anything else before 1.

Almost.

[Michael W Richards]

Almost.

Yeah, the sound of boots. Which she assumed were policemans boots, despite the fact that women and men often wore very much the same kind of boot.

[Michael W Richards]

The Daily News on Oct 1st has a thorough account of Mrs Mortimers statement. She states some things there that some members have either ignored or dont believe. Its unwise to do either.

[Michael W Richards]

Back to the apron section....it seems that some are in agreement that the messages location is relevant when interpreting the GSG, which leaves the section as some punctuation to a preexisting statement, or the apron section depositor also wrote the message and used the location purposefully.

When considering that Jews were blaming some unknown party for the trouble on their property earlier that night, it would seem that what incited the apron section man to do what he did was that event. "The Jews are not the men that will be blamed for nothing", either The Jews should be blamed, or the Jews will get away with it..again.

[Wickerman]

Again with perhaps intentional argumentative fervor..



Take that back, one does....Issac K works for the club and he says he was by the dying woman at around 12:40...what, dont you like his story? Oh yeah, it agrees with 3 other witnesses, and you like unsubstantiated over the corroborated.

If I recall, you are the one who cannot accept the Isaac K. who directly came out of the side door of the club with Diemschitz being the same Isaac Kozebrodski, who directly came out of the side door of the club with Diemschitz. For what pie-in-the-sky reason wholly escapes me, and likely everyone else.
That is just the first example of the topsy-turvy logic you have been promoting for several years past.

Then there's your star witness Mortimer who readily admits she was not stood at her door the whole time, in fact she says she went to her door twice between 12:30 - 01:00 am, and then there's Spooner who had no idea what the time was.

Not forgetting the newspaper carrier seen by PC Smith about 12:35, who you have insisted was West leaving the club, being totally oblivious of the fact he had already left the club WITH his brother, and WITH another club member, by his own words at 12:15 by the front door. So three men together walked out the front door into Berner St., so West was not on his own talking to Stride, nor was he on his way from the printing office with an armful of newspapers.

Get a grip Michael!

[Michael W Richards]

If I recall, you are the one who cannot accept the (1) Isaac K. who directly came out of the side door of the club with Diemschitz being the same Isaac Kozebrodski, who directly came out of the side door of the club with Diemschitz. For what pie-in-the-sky reason wholly escapes me, and likely everyone else.
That is just the first example of the topsy-turvy logic you have been promoting for several years past.

(2)Then there's your star witness Mortimer who readily admits she was not stood at her door the whole time, in fact she says she went to her door twice between 12:30 - 01:00 am, and then there's (3) Spooner who had no idea what the time was.

Not forgetting the newspaper carrier seen by PC Smith about 12:35, who you have insisted was (4) West leaving the club, being totally oblivious of the fact he had already left the club WITH his brother, and WITH another club member, by his own words at 12:15 by the front door. So three men together walked out the front door into Berner St., so West was not on his own talking to Stride, nor was he on his way from the printing office with an armful of newspapers.

Get a grip Michael!

Jon,

I have no problem discussing things with you...when you dont misrepresent or outright fabricate.

On the above, (1) read what Issac K himself said happened and when...he came out at 12:40 after being called by Louis...at 12:40, not 1am, and he was sent out alone for help. (2) Fanny said she was at her door...."nearly the whole time", stopping making up details and use facts. Juvenile. And unlike ALL of your preferred witnesses, she has corroboration. (3) Spooner did estimate his time...did you forget that or just choose misrepresentation?...and 3 other witnesses corroberate his timing.

(4) West says....does anyone see him leave?

Youve crossed the line Jon. If you cant read, or understand what youve read, I cant help you. If youre just choosing to be an a******, then make another choice please.

Its on paper.....multiple accounts corroborating each other have weight....stories about things no-one else saw or heard have nothing to substantiate them. Yet you use those .

[Wickerman]

Jon,

I have no problem discussing things with you...when you dont misrepresent or outright fabricate.

You have to start by telling the truth Michael.

On the above, (1) read what Issac K himself said happened and when...he came out at 12:40 after being called by Louis...at 12:40, not 1am,...

This is the first untruth. You are NOT using the words of Kozebrodski, the press account you choose to use is paraphrase. There is only one press account which uses quotation marks " " " " - those are quotation marks Michael.
The London Evening News actually presents the words of Kozebrodski in quotes:

"I came into the club about which you are asking me at half-past twelve o'clock. Shortly after I came in Diemschitz asked me to come out into the yard,....."

Kozebrodski does not give a time, yet you insist he said "12:40", he doesn't.
Tell the truth Michael, the truth!

Then with West, only YOU try to put words in his mouth, only YOU choose to call him a liar, with no evidence whatsoever, except to bolster your topsy-turvy theory.
You are presenting a fictional story, yet you assert I cannot read?

[Michael W Richards]

Quoted from Issac K...""I was in this club last night. I came in about half-past six in the evening. About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was. When we had got outside he struck a match, and when we looked down on the ground we could see a long stream of blood. It was running down the gutter from the direction of the gate, and reached to the back door of the club. I should think there was blood in the gutter for a distance of five or six yards. I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers. The officers did not touch the body, but sent for a doctor. A doctor came, and an inspector arrived just afterwards. While the doctor was examining the body, I noticed that she had some grapes in her right hand and some sweets in her left. I saw a little bunch of flowers stuck above her right bosom."

So Jon, what is 20 minutes to 1? Isnt that 12:40? DO YOU WANT TO LOOK AT A CLOCK FIRST BEFORE YOU POST MORE OF THE SAME ASININE REBUTTALS?


So...its official, not only can you not read whats on paper, you believe only the stories with the least amount of substantiation possible, and prefer to take someones word over contradictory evidence from multiple sources.

[Curious Cat]

Quoted from Issac K...""I was in this club last night. I came in about half-past six in the evening. About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was. When we had got outside he struck a match, and when we looked down on the ground we could see a long stream of blood. It was running down the gutter from the direction of the gate, and reached to the back door of the club. I should think there was blood in the gutter for a distance of five or six yards. I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers. The officers did not touch the body, but sent for a doctor. A doctor came, and an inspector arrived just afterwards. While the doctor was examining the body, I noticed that she had some grapes in her right hand and some sweets in her left. I saw a little bunch of flowers stuck above her right bosom."

So Jon, what is 20 minutes to 1? Isnt that 12:40? DO YOU WANT TO LOOK AT A CLOCK FIRST BEFORE YOU POST MORE OF THE SAME ASININE REBUTTALS?


So...its official, not only can you not read whats on paper, you believe only the stories with the least amount of substantiation possible, and prefer to take someones word over contradictory evidence from multiple sources.

Pardon the jumping in of this 'heated' exchange, but this overlooks Edward Spooner's evidence at the inquest.

It corroborates Deimschutz's account and timings. He had no previous affiliation with the club. He's an independent witness. What would he gain from lying about when Diemschutz's was calling for the police with another man?

Where is this quote from?


It is also quite possible for Elizabeth Stride to have been in possession of some grapes but for them to be discarded without being eaten before her murder. Just because they weren't found on her person when her body was found doesn't necessarily mean she never had them, even if she didn't consume them.

[Wickerman]

Where is this quote from?

It's from the Daily News of 1st Oct.

Michael is getting annoyed at being called out for not telling the truth. He continues with the deception by inserting quotation marks in a press report which does not contain any such quotes.

* * * *

To Michael

This isn't very smart Michael, as anyone can pull up the Daily News copy here on Casebook and check for themselves.

However, we can go a step further and look at the original in the British Newspaper Archives.
Like this:

Notice, NO quotation marks when Kozebrodski begins speaking, nor at the end.




So, are we just reading paraphrase offered in the first-person, by the reporter? Or is it verbatim, and the editor forgot to include quotation marks?
We don't know, but the interview with Charles Letchford does include quotation marks, both in the Casebook copy & the original held at the B.N.A.

Ask yourself this Michael.
How can the Daily News & The London Evening News both print a verbatim interview with Kozebrodski, and yet both interviews use different words?
They can't - because the Daily News is paraphrase, like all the rest. You, put the quotes in to try con the reader, and worse than that, to try con someone who actually checks things.
Something you might want to start doing yourself for a change.

When anyone intentionally deceives the reader they need to be called out on it.
The only copy we have of an interview presented in verbatim with Isaac Kozebrodski is in the London Evening News - I know Michael because I already looked months ago when you tried to pull this stunt before.

[Wickerman]

There is an evening version of the Daily News copy, it's the Evening Standard, which uses the Daily News version from the morning press, but adds quotation marks to the Kozebrodski interview. If we check each interview in the Evening Standard with the Daily News, it's almost a word for word copy. So it does not appear to be an independent source, just a rerun of the morning press by the Daily News, which had no quotes.

So Michael, is this your source?
It was not an original, just a reprint of the morning Daily News, but with added quotes.

[miakaal4]

I must say I find it remarkable and very interesting that so many people believe JtR didn'y know how to spell Jews. Another case of filing a piece to fit the jigsaw. He wrote JUWES. Deliberately. The problem is that when you accept that, and that he wrote it, dropped the rag etc, you have to accept that very few of the main suspects listed on this board fit the enigma. Lots fill the antisemitic "Jews". So more acceptable??

[DJA]

I must say I find it remarkable and very interesting that so many people believe JtR didn'y know how to spell Jews. Another case of filing a piece to fit the jigsaw. He wrote JUWES. Deliberately. The problem is that when you accept that, and that he wrote it, dropped the rag etc, you have to accept that very few of the main suspects listed on this board fit the enigma. Lots fill the antisemitic "Jews". So more acceptable??

As has been pointed out on this thread,you don't spell Jews with a capital I.

He wrote the initials of the Berner Street club.IUWEC,C also being misinterpreted as an S.

[etenguy]

I must say I find it remarkable and very interesting that so many people believe JtR didn'y know how to spell Jews. Another case of filing a piece to fit the jigsaw. He wrote JUWES. Deliberately. The problem is that when you accept that, and that he wrote it, dropped the rag etc, you have to accept that very few of the main suspects listed on this board fit the enigma. Lots fill the antisemitic "Jews". So more acceptable??

Hi Miakaal4

We do not know the word that many suggest is a misspelling of Jews is actually Juwes. Those at the scene took down different spellings, suggesting that the writing was not quite as clear as Halse reported. However, it is the generally accepted word. And I agree with your inference that it is highly unlikely the author did not know how to spell Jews.

Some suggest the J is actually an I - and in some fonts, capital Is can look a lot like Js. This prompts some to suggest the word actually refers to the club and should be read as an abbreviation of the International Working Men's Educational Club. This would certainly answer the criticism that if it was written by the killer why did he not directly refer to Stride's murder. However, as there is no photograph of the writing, we struggle to interpret that word independently of how it was reported by the police.