The apron was dropped...

[Michael W Richards]

If this is your argument then please post all quotes and all their sources together to be examined properly.

Hi Curious,

Since Im just using the Witnesses File and the Press Files on this site Im sure you can navigate your own way there. Issac K, Gillen, Heschberg and Spooners statements all suggests that the body was discovered before 12:45, Fanny Mortimer was at her door continuously from 12:50 until 1am as confirmed by her sighting of Goldstein at 12:55 and she didnt not see anyone approaching or arriving by cart during those 10 minutes.

The only people seen on Berner Street between 12:40 and 1am are the young couple, the ones that Brown saw, and Leon Goldstein and his black bag at 12:55.

If you use only the statements that are substantiated by other statements, then you cannot use Louis, or Morris, or Joseph, or Israel. Which gives us exactly what Fanny Mortimer says..a street essentially deserted between 12:40 and 1. Louis says he arrived at "precisely"...his words... 1am...Fanny proves that incorrect...Eagle and Lave claim to be just inside the gates at 12:40, yet neither see each other and Eagle "couldnt be sure" a body was lying there at that time. No one sees or hears anything of what Israel claims other than himself, and he places himself and 3 other unseen people on a street that Fanny said was "deserted".

Its clear by just these facts that staff members of the club were either very mistaken or they lied. In either case they are disputed by multiple witnesses on events and times.

Since the ONLY witnesses that could have negative financial impact by police suspicions of their involvement in this murder are staff members and the speaker, Im not at all surprised to see they are all the contentious claims.

[Curious Cat]

Hi Curious,

Since Im just using the Witnesses File and the Press Files on this site Im sure you can navigate your own way there. Issac K, Gillen, Heschberg and Spooners statements all suggests that the body was discovered before 12:45, Fanny Mortimer was at her door continuously from 12:50 until 1am as confirmed by her sighting of Goldstein at 12:55 and she didnt not see anyone approaching or arriving by cart during those 10 minutes.

The only people seen on Berner Street between 12:40 and 1am are the young couple, the ones that Brown saw, and Leon Goldstein and his black bag at 12:55.

If you use only the statements that are substantiated by other statements, then you cannot use Louis, or Morris, or Joseph, or Israel. Which gives us exactly what Fanny Mortimer says..a street essentially deserted between 12:40 and 1. Louis says he arrived at "precisely"...his words... 1am...Fanny proves that incorrect...Eagle and Lave claim to be just inside the gates at 12:40, yet neither see each other and Eagle "couldnt be sure" a body was lying there at that time. No one sees or hears anything of what Israel claims other than himself, and he places himself and 3 other unseen people on a street that Fanny said was "deserted".

Its clear by just these facts that staff members of the club were either very mistaken or they lied. In either case they are disputed by multiple witnesses on events and times.

Since the ONLY witnesses that could have negative financial impact by police suspicions of their involvement in this murder are staff members and the speaker, Im not at all surprised to see they are all the contentious claims.

You are presenting your conclusions, not the evidence you have used to reach them.

If you want your argument to be taken seriously the onus is on you to present it properly, not tell others to seek it out themselves.

Or have you no faith in your own argument?

Present all the quotes and all their sources that have led you to conclude the killer came from within the club.

[Curious Cat]

Prior to the inquest, LD said this to the press:



No reference to a clock.
No 'exactly one o'clock'.
Diemschitz didn't see the clock at precisely 1am, until the inquest.



Common sense suggests Commercial Road would have been the first and only place necessary to search for police, but the search does not start there. Why?



Spooner estimated standing outside the Beehive for half an hour. He just quoted the wrong half-hour timespan. He meant 12:00-12:30 - the half hour after the pubs closed.
When asked specifically, he says he arrived at the club at about 12:35. This is sensational, and jibes well with Kozebrodky's 12:40 estimate.
What you're suggesting by saying that Spooner and lady friend stood outside the pub between 12:30-40, is that 10 minutes was perceived as 25 or 30 - a pretty wild mis-estimate.
Of course, Spooner's 12:35 estimate is too early - he has only been onsite for 6 or 7 mins (he examines the victim briefly, before standing-by for about 5 mins) when Lamb arrives at 1am, but the point is that everyone who estimates a time of arrival prior to Lamb's, places that estimate well before 1am - not even close to 1am, let alone after 1am, which Diemschitz' claimed arrival time would dictate was a necessity.



Are you aware that Ed Spooner is not the first non-club member to see the body?



After Diemschitz and other club members, Stride's body is witnessed by non-club members in this order:

Joseph Koster > Abraham Heshburg > Edward Spooner > PC Lamb

Lamb is onsite at 1am, and Spooner beats him there by at least 5 minutes.
So to answer you're question...

... what time does that give you for when Eagle and Diemschutz leave Dutfield's Yard in opposing directions to find the police to come to the crime scene?

Oh, I reckon about 12:47 or 12:48.
In other words, just a couple of minutes after the murder at 12:45.

Spooner not being the first non-club member on the scene is neither here nor there.

The point is Spooner corroborates seeing Deimschutz and another man run to Grove Street. Spooner returns to the club with Diemschutz. Spooner is at Dutfield's Yard about 4 minutes before PC Lamb. PC Lamb is brought to Dutfield's Yard by Morris Eagle. PC Lamb is at Dutfield's Yard about 10 minutes before Dr Maxwell. Dr Maxwell arrives at Dutfield's Yard at 1:16am by his own watch. All times are then counted back by that time.

Commercial Road is further from the club than Grove Street. Diemschutz and Spooner would have started their return to Dutfield's Yard by the time Morris Eagle got into Commercial Road. PC Lamb cannot be at Dutfield's Yard at 1am as Dr Maxwell arrives 10 minutes after him. PC Lamb gets there at about 1:05am. Spooner reaches Dutfield Yard about 1am.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Louis says he arrived at "precisely"...his words... 1am...Fanny proves that incorrect...

How does Fanny determine the time?
She make no reference to a clock or watch.
However, she does talk to Mr & Mrs Diemschitz the next day (and possibly on the night too).
It is due to Louis that she anchors her mostly outside period - estimated to span half an hour - to between 12:30 and 1am.
Fanny's 1am is Louis' 1am - she gets '1am' from him - not her own time source.

Eagle and Lave claim to be just inside the gates at 12:40, yet neither see each other and Eagle "couldnt be sure" a body was lying there at that time.

Maybe they missed each other by a minute or two?

Eagle "couldn't be sure" there was nobody lying in the driveway, because it was very dark there.
The way you put it - "lying there" - changes the meaning of his words.
Eagle could be up to his neck in the murder, or he could be 100% innocent, but you can't put him in a no-win situation, which is what you're doing by suggesting that "couldn't be sure" means he is implying he saw something but couldn't identify it as human.

[DJA]

Spooner says he and his good lady quietly walked to the the spot outside the Beehive pub.

Here's the Pub in 1938.

[c.d.]

Keep in mind that Fanny Mortimer had a sick husband and I believe it was five kids. Could she have attended to one of them for just a few minutes during "the whole time she was standing at her door"? Certainly a possibility.

c.d.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Spooner not being the first non-club member on the scene is neither here nor there.

Did Koster and Heshburg arrive before 1am?
You claim Spooner arrives at ~1am.
So what time did Diemschitz arrive?
Is that question also neither here nor there?

The point is Spooner corroborates seeing Deimschutz and another man run to Grove Street. Spooner returns to the club with Diemschutz. Spooner is at Dutfield's Yard about 4 minutes before PC Lamb.

This is Spooner quoted in the Times Oct3:

Between half-past 12 and 1 o'clock on Sunday morning I was standing outside the Bee Hive publichouse, at the corner of Christian-street and Fairclough-street, along with a young woman. I had previously been in another beershop at the top of the street, and afterwards walked down. After talking for about 25 minutes I saw two Jews come running along and shouting out "Murder" and "Police." They then ran as far as Grove-street and turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter. They replied, "A woman has been murdered." I then went round with them to Berner-street, and into Dutfield's yard, adjoining No. 40, Berner-street. I saw a woman lying just inside the gate. At that time there were about 15 people in the yard, and they were all standing round the body. The majority of them appeared to be Jews. No one touched the body. One of them struck a match, and I lifted up the chin of the deceased with my hand. The chin was slightly warm. Blood was still flowing from the throat. I could see that she had a piece of paper doubled up in her right hand, and a red and white flower pinned on to her jacket. The body was lying on one side, with the face turned towards the wall. I noticed that blood was running down the gutter. I stood there about five minutes before a constable came.

So Spooner saw "two Jew come running along". How do you know one of them was Diemschutz?
You'll also note that Spooner says "I stood there about five minutes before a constable came", and this was after making his way through the crowd, and examining the deceased. He also says: "As I was going to Berner-street I did not meet any one except Mr. Harris, who came out of his house in Tiger Bay (Brunswick-street)."
How many minutes does all that total? It's more that 4.

PC Lamb is brought to Dutfield's Yard by Morris Eagle. PC Lamb is at Dutfield's Yard about 10 minutes before Dr Maxwell. Dr Maxwell arrives at Dutfield's Yard at 1:16am by his own watch. All times are then counted back by that time.

That 10 minutes is a mental estimate, just as Spooner's 12:35 arrival time is an mental estimate.
Lamb may have also mistaken Blackwell's arrival time with Ed Johnston's. EJ said this at the inquest:

As soon as Dr. Blackwell came he looked at his watch. It was then 1:16. I was there three or four minutes before Dr. Blackwell.

So Johnston is aware of Blackwell checking his watch, meaning that this is after Blackwell arrives at the closed gates.
Most likely the 1:16 time is a reference to when Blackwell starts dictating notes to Johnston, and '1:16' is recorded in those notes. That is why Johnston remembers Blackwell looking at his watch - the time was written down.

Commercial Road is further from the club than Grove Street. Diemschutz and Spooner would have started their return to Dutfield's Yard by the time Morris Eagle got into Commercial Road. PC Lamb cannot be at Dutfield's Yard at 1am as Dr Maxwell arrives 10 minutes after him. PC Lamb gets there at about 1:05am. Spooner reaches Dutfield Yard about 1am.

Commercial Road is a main road - Grove Street isn't.
Commercial Road is a 30 second jog from #40 Berner street, at most.
Police were eventually found ... on Commercial Road.

If Lamb's 10 minute estimate is so accurate, then what to make of this?...

PC Smith : It takes me from 25 minutes to half an hour to go round my beat. I was last in Berner-street about half-past 12 or 12:35. At 1 o'clock I went to Berner-street in my ordinary round. I saw a crowd of people outside the gates of No. 40. I did not hear any cries of "Police." When I got there I saw constables 12 H R and 252 H. I then saw the deceased, and, on looking at her, found she was dead. I then went to the station for the ambulance. Dr. Blackwell's assistant came just as I was going away.

Smith could see the crowd gathered outside the gates of #40, from Commercial Rd, at 1am.
When he arrives, Lamb and Collins are already there.
He then walks to club at normal beat pace, arriving about 1:02.
A few minutes later he heads off for an ambulance, just as Ed Johnston arrives.

[Wickerman]

.......For example, at Nichols' inquest, horse-slaughterer Henry Tom(p)kins said he went to get a drink at about twenty minutes past midnight and returned to work at one am, saying "We always go out to get a drink before the houses close."....

Hi Joshua.

Yes, apparently it was a pub called The Grave Maurice. Mumford provides a little more detail:


They always go up the top to the Grave Maurice" (a publichouse half a minute's walk from the slaughter-house, and about a minute's walk from the gateway of Essex Wharf).

"What time?"

"About twenty minutes after twelve they usually start."

"But the house closes then, does it not?"

"No, not till half-past. They go there and have their refreshment, and bring me some back. I am not supposed to leave the place, and I don't do so. They take a crust of bread-and-cheese with them, and if they haven't time to eat it in the house they keep outside and have a blow. These chaps are very upset about what the police are doing."
Echo, 4 Sept. 1888.


If I understand the terminology, Tompkins & Britten did not stay inside the pub when it closed, but stood outside to finish their bread & cheese.
I could be wrong, but there is nothing here to suggest the pub did not close at 12:30 when it should, on a weekday.

[DJA]

Grave Maurice,269 Whitechapel Road.

[Wickerman]

You got a shot of every pub in Whitechapel?

[DJA]

Curious Cat was asking questions about localities,so I reckoned the 'photos would be good.

Love old pubs.

Grave Maurice is now a betting shop/fish shop.

New computer. Just downloaded the new Google Earth.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Joshua.

Yes, apparently it was a pub called The Grave Maurice. Mumford provides a little more detail:


They always go up the top to the Grave Maurice" (a publichouse half a minute's walk from the slaughter-house, and about a minute's walk from the gateway of Essex Wharf).

"What time?"

"About twenty minutes after twelve they usually start."

"But the house closes then, does it not?"

"No, not till half-past. They go there and have their refreshment, and bring me some back. I am not supposed to leave the place, and I don't do so. They take a crust of bread-and-cheese with them, and if they haven't time to eat it in the house they keep outside and have a blow. These chaps are very upset about what the police are doing."
Echo, 4 Sept. 1888.


If I understand the terminology, Tompkins & Britten did not stay inside the pub when it closed, but stood outside to finish their bread & cheese.
I could be wrong, but there is nothing here to suggest the pub did not close at 12:30 when it should, on a weekday.

The Grave Maurice. lol! love the name of these old pubs.

[DJA]

Popular poster of that name hasn't been sighted for 14 months.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Curious Cat was asking questions about localities,so I reckoned the 'photos would be good.

Love old pubs.

Grave Maurice is now a betting shop/fish shop.

New computer. Just downloaded the new Google Earth.

Sadly Dave, there's less of them every year. And the remaining ones, particularly in central London, are upmarket gastro pubs. Although Dirty Dicks was still going last time I was that way.

[Michael W Richards]

You are presenting your conclusions, not the evidence you have used to reach them.

If you want your argument to be taken seriously the onus is on you to present it properly, not tell others to seek it out themselves.

Or have you no faith in your own argument?

Present all the quotes and all their sources that have led you to conclude the killer came from within the club.

Curious, Im often at work when I am on here and since all the references to the statements Ive referred to are on this site, perhaps at your leisure you can refer to the Witness files on Issac Kozebrodksi, club member Gillen, Heschberg, Diemshutz, Eagle, Lave, Wess, PC Smith, Fanny Mortimer, James Brown, and of course the star witness, Israel Schwartz.

Its clear once these are compared that ALL the stories without corroboration belong to people directly associated with the club. And all the other attendee or bystander stories have a general time around the body as being between 12:40 and 12:45. With a small crowd already there when they arrive. As was pointed out earlier, at no point in this story does Spooner state who he saw running for help, and in Issac Kozebrodski's statement he suggests at least he was sent out for help around 12:45...something not even mentioned to the police. There may well have been others sent too.

To the point....there is no substantiated story that suggests anyone was on the street near the club from 12:35-40 until 12:55..when Leon strolls past, looking into the passageway. Fanny Mortimer, who almost certainly has a clock in her home, states she was outside viewing the street "nearly the whole time" between 12:30 and 1am, and that she stayed at her door continuously for the last 10 minutes of the half hour. She went in at 1. Had Louis been arriving "precisely" at 1 as he claimed, she would not have been able to miss seeing and hearing him. Perhaps he just chose his words poorly?

The Young Couple, and Leon Goldstein passing by. Thats who was visibly there to Fanny. She says that should someone have come from the club during that time she "surely" would have seen them, is that just a bad choice of words for her too?

Liz was out of sight shortly after PC Smith leaves, Diemshutz arrives, mayhem begins,...all within the confines of the alleyway. A club attendee is by far the most probable killer...and he isnt any kind of Ripper.