Torsoman vs The Ripper

[Robert St Devil]

This has been dealt with before; a physician can't tell if a woman is a virgin by studying her uterus. He meant either nulligravida or nullipara. Judging by the cervix, she hadn't given birth.

Not so much focusing on her sexual tendency or proclivity, rj, simply trying to illustrate that she wasn't a woman who might be in a condition at the time of her death whereby she might be considering an abortion.

since none of the local mortuaries were contracting out "dismemberment & disposal of the recently departed" services to half-rated dimwits, that only leaves murder as the likely cause behind these women's death

[rjpalmer]

In An Exercise in Forensic Medicine , Dr. Hebbert went as far as to conclude that her uterus (Rainham) "was that of a virgin"

This has been dealt with before; a physician can't tell if a woman is a virgin by studying her uterus. He meant either nulligravida or nullipara. Judging by the cervix, she hadn't given birth.

[Debra A]

Excellent points, Robert

[Robert St Devil]

There seems to be a link between three of them, yet it cannot be abortion related as one of the women definitely was not pregnant (Rainham)

In An Exercise in Forensic Medicine , Dr. Hebbert went as far as to conclude that her uterus (Rainham) "was that of a virgin"

marhaba debs and all

in the 4 torso cases, i put minimal to no weight into death caused by 'botched abortion'. Including the Pinchin case, the drs. had the female sex organs of 3 of the four women; and, there was nothing evident to the drs. to indicate a forced rupture or (with the exception of Elizabeth Jackson) recent impregnation.

i lean towards murder because every other consideration (at this point) seems too far-fetched to consider, which begs the question of the manner of murder. the doctors seemingly rule out drowning (no water in the lungs); in the cases where a complete torso was located, there aren't any fatal injuries to the trunk, such as stabbing; and, based on the condition of the heart, I doubt that she was strangled. In the Pinchin case, Dr. Hebbert concludes that "the immediate cause of death was syncope as shown by the condition of the heart, and the general bloodlessness of the tissues would indicate hemorhhage..."

...so that only leaves a fatal attack on her neck or her head. lately I am entertaining the suggestion that she may have suffered death by some type of blunt force trauma to her skull, such as being struck by a heavy object or gunshot.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
as for noticing similarities to the Ripper murders:

1. there's the removal of the intestines
2. there's indication of removal of a "wedding ring"
3. there's indication of cutting around the umbilicus
4. there's an incision running from below the ensiform cartilage to the genitalia
5. in addition, there's a macabre focus on the organs

[Trevor Marriott]

There's a more fundamental reason: heads don't float. They are also small enough that they can be easily buried.

I have no idea if he is well-known in the UK, but the American millionaire turned murderer, Robert Durst, killed at least three people, including his next-door neighbor, Morris Black. Durst shot Black with a handgun and then cut-up his body in the kitchen, smuggling the parts down to Galveston Bay in plastic bags. Durst was careless enough that he left a receipt for his eyeglasses in one of the bags and was thus easily traced. Anyway, the various parts of the body washed-up or floated to the surface--all except the poor man's head. It was the only part never recovered, and--apologies for being graphic--but the police believed it was probably rolling along the bottom of the ocean and would never been found, which proved to be the case.

Its no more dangerous than killing a victim in a public street, and clearly whoever was responsible for dumping the torsos in the river was prepared to take that risk

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[rjpalmer]

So you can see there is every reason for the torsos to not be formally identified and the reason for the missing heads

There's a more fundamental reason: heads don't float. They are also small enough that they can be easily buried.

I have no idea if he is well-known in the UK, but the American millionaire turned murderer, Robert Durst, killed at least three people, including his next-door neighbor, Morris Black. Durst shot Black with a handgun and then cut-up his body in the kitchen, smuggling the parts down to Galveston Bay in plastic bags. Durst was careless enough that he left a receipt for his eyeglasses in one of the bags and was thus easily traced. Anyway, the various parts of the body washed-up or floated to the surface--all except the poor man's head. It was the only part never recovered, and--apologies for being graphic--but the police believed it was probably rolling along the bottom of the ocean and would never been found, which proved to be the case.

[rjpalmer]

One particularly bad one who not only risked being caught disposing of a body after causing a woman's death through an illegal act but also thought they may as well go the whole hog and sell off organs illegally while they were at it and further risk being caught?

My thoughts exactly. No one who is so terrified of exposure that they are willing to cut-up a body and smuggle it down to the river (or to a building site) is going to risk exposure or further human contact by peddling the victim's lungs and heart to make a few quick bob---provided they could even find someone to buy them. In general, abortionists have an accomplice, anyway (either a 'midwife' or the paramour who is inveigled to help), in which case the victim could be transported in a trunk, etc. without the need to dismember the body. There are exceptions, but I would think that in most cases of this type the body was cut up because the perpetrator had to dispose of the victim by themselves.

[Trevor Marriott]

Aren't those who suggest the same killer committed both 'series' simply questioning the old accepted theories of no link? None of us know, or will ever know for certain.

Off topic from a Ripper/Torso link or a torso killer with a 20 year+ history here - But yes, accidental death whilst procuring an abortion did occur, there's absolutely no doubt about it. There are even a couple of cases where these poor women were dismembered to disguise the crime, no one suggests otherwise. It's a high probablilty for a 'one off' pregnant victim. But then we have to consider the other two women whose bodies were disposed of in a strikingly similar manner and in almost exactly the same area of the Thames and all within a couple of years of each other when a crime like this, though not rare, was certainly not recorded at the same frequency with the same victim type and location. That has to be something worth taking notice of? Some exploration of a possible link at least between the three 87-89 Thames related 'torso' cases and not be dismissed with sweeping generalisations that don't fit all the circumstances.

Accidental death whilst procuring an abortion followed by illegal organ harvesting for profit, three times over, and then disposing of the body illegally seems less likely in my opinion. Are we dealing with different abortionists or one particularly bad one operating in the same area in the space of two years? One particularly bad one who not only risked being caught disposing of a body after causing a woman's death through an illegal act but also thought they may as well go the whole hog and sell off organs illegally while they were at it and further risk being caught? Those are rhetorical questions of course as we've been over this old ground many times and the subject of this thread is a Ripper/torso link, which I am not necessarily arguing for. I just hate generalised comments about the women who died, were dismembered and disposed of that dismiss the idea outright that these women were victims of horrific crime too.

We simply don't know, all we can do is assess and evaluate the facts of whether these women were murdered or were they victims of botched medical procedures in an unbiased fashion, either way, I agree with you they did not deserve to die in the way they did. But we cannot prove either way conclusively, but in the absence of any direct evidence to show a cause of death and the fact that vital organs were missing from the torsos along with the heads and the knowledge of the illegal trade in body parts, my own personal belief is that they could have died as a result of some botched back street medical procedure.

I recall that with one of the torsos there was direct evidence of a foetus having been removed

Performing illegal abortions was a crime in 1888 in which the sentence carried a maximum sentence of life in prison so I think those who profited from these medical procedures would have been extra vigilant so as to not get caught and where women died and it seems reading up on this there were many who did, so there would have been a need for those performing these procedures where women died to dispose of the evidence and the identity of the deceased.

An example would be if victim A found herself pregnant and wanted an abortion so she has a friend who knows an abortionist and sends her to that friend. Victim A then dies during or after the procedure and the abortionist simply dumps the body in a secluded location or in the Thames. The body is later found and identified and police enquiries identify the abortionist who then gets arrested.

So you can see there is every reason for the torsos to not be formally identified and the reason for the missing heads

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Debra A]

Debra
I think you have to look at the overall picture concerning both the torsos and the WM

the killer known as jtr clearly murdered in public places with the bodies being found where they were killed with no signs of any attempts at dismemberment

for those who suggest the same killer committed both series of murders this is beyond belief there is absolutely nothing to support this belief the two series are totally different and there is no evidence to support the wilful murder verdict brought in on some of the torsos.

In answer to your post if the victims had died at the hands of an abortionist and the death had occurred at the house of that abortionist and the likelihood is that is where these women would have gone for such procedures then there would have been an urgent need to dispose of the bodies for obvious reasons, and as I stated previously I would suggest the abortionist would have known the value of organs and body parts and after they had been removed the bodies would have to have been removed and dumped as was the case.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Aren't those who suggest the same killer committed both 'series' simply questioning the old accepted theories of no link? None of us know, or will ever know for certain.

Off topic from a Ripper/Torso link or a torso killer with a 20 year+ history here - But yes, accidental death whilst procuring an abortion did occur, there's absolutely no doubt about it. There are even a couple of cases where these poor women were dismembered to disguise the crime, no one suggests otherwise. It's a high probablilty for a 'one off' pregnant victim. But then we have to consider the other two women whose bodies were disposed of in a strikingly similar manner and in almost exactly the same area of the Thames and all within a couple of years of each other when a crime like this, though not rare, was certainly not recorded at the same frequency with the same victim type and location. That has to be something worth taking notice of? Some exploration of a possible link at least between the three 87-89 Thames related 'torso' cases and not be dismissed with sweeping generalisations that don't fit all the circumstances.

Accidental death whilst procuring an abortion followed by illegal organ harvesting for profit, three times over, and then disposing of the body illegally seems less likely in my opinion. Are we dealing with different abortionists or one particularly bad one operating in the same area in the space of two years? One particularly bad one who not only risked being caught disposing of a body after causing a woman's death through an illegal act but also thought they may as well go the whole hog and sell off organs illegally while they were at it and further risk being caught? Those are rehetorical questions of course as we've been over this old ground many times and the subject of this thread is a Ripper/torso link, which I am not necessarily arguing for. I just hate generalised comments about the women who died, were dismebered and disposed of that dismiss the idea outright that these women were victims of horrific crime too.

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor, Ditto to what R.J. just said. We have many, many examples of such cases where the murderer went to great lengths to dismember someone they had just murdered. Perhaps you mean it isn't usually the case within a 'series' of murders?

I can't quite get my head around you believeing that someone who had killed someone during the course of an illegal operation would take such a huge risk in getting rid of a body by dismemberment and disposing of it piecemeal but yet you don't believe someone who had just murdered someone would do the same thing.

Debra
I think you have to look at the overall picture concerning both the torsos and the WM

the killer known as jtr clearly murdered in public places with the bodies being found where they were killed with no signs of any attempts at dismemberment

for those who suggest the same killer committed both series of murders this is beyond belief there is absolutely nothing to support this belief the two series are totally different and there is no evidence to support the wilful murder verdict brought in on some of the torsos.

In answer to your post if the victims had died at the hands of an abortionist and the death had occurred at the house of that abortionist and the likelihood is that is where these women would have gone for such procedures then there would have been an urgent need to dispose of the bodies for obvious reasons, and as I stated previously I would suggest the abortionist would have known the value of organs and body parts and after they had been removed the bodies would have to have been removed and dumped as was the case.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Debra A]

In some of the Torso cases, the coroner directed the jury to deliver a verdict of wilful murder despite there being no evidence to substantiate this, in other cases found dead was the verdict, so to categorically state that the victims were murdered is a step too far in my opinion.

It is suggested by some researchers that the victims were murdered and then dismembered would a killer go to these lengths? Personally, I doubt that, if the victims were murdered that's a lot of trouble to go to dispose of the body when there are many other ways of disposing of a body without the need to dismember it.

As to the dismembering as has been stated there is a suggestion that the victims could have died as a result of some back street medical procedure that could have occurred during a procedure or following such a procedure. If that were the case then clearly the abortionist would need to dispose of all the evidence and distance themselves from the illegal procedure, so dismembering would be an easy option. But I am sure these abortionists were aware of the illegal trade in body parts involving body dealers and the prices being paid for body parts and this is why in my opinion we see evidence of vital organs missing from some of the bodies.

I have mentioned all the heads missing from the torsos, some may say that was to hide their identity but again why would a killer go to that trouble? a more simple explanation is that the heads and other body parts were sold to body dealers.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Trevor, Ditto to what R.J. just said. We have many, many examples of such cases where the murderer went to great lengths to dismember someone they had just murdered. Perhaps you mean it isn't usually the case within a 'series' of murders?

I can't quite get my head around you believeing that someone who had killed someone during the course of an illegal operation would take such a huge risk in getting rid of a body by dismemberment and disposing of it piecemeal but yet you don't believe someone who had just murdered someone would do the same thing.

[rjpalmer]

I have mentioned all the heads missing from the torsos, some may say that was to hide their identity but again why would a killer go to that trouble?

But Trevor, we know from 'solved' cases that the killer does go to that length. If the victim is headless, it becomes more difficult to identify the body, so the killer thinks they need to take special care with the head.

In the Kate Webster case (1879), the victim's head wasn't discovered until 2011, when the great naturalist, David Attenborough, bought the property next door and was having an extension built onto his house.

The skull was proven to be Mrs. Thomas's.

Skull found in David Attenborough's garden was murder victim Julia Martha Thomas | Daily Mail Online

[Trevor Marriott]

To clarify, I was only responding to the question "Would a woman dress up to have an abortion?" but wasn't really insisting the Whitehall case falls into that category-only that it could have. There is no forensic evidence to guide us to whether this was a domestic murder, an abortion case, or something else.

The examples I was thinking of happened in the United States. In one case, a woman from another state traveled to the Big City (New York) to have the 'procedure,' and died as a result. She wasn't taken to a hospital, nor did she return home; she died in secrecy and her body was stuffed into a trunk and taken to the train depot. There were two similar cases in Michigan where two women found in the river were traced to the same brothel, where they had been operated on by the same abortionist, and their bodies dumped after they died. It wouldn't be a great leap to instead cut up a body and bury it, so I can't entirely dismiss the idea.

Concerning the torso victims all being 'young women,' this could be true, but I remember in the Kate Webster case Dr. Adams estimated the victim's age between 19-30, but when the victim was finally conclusively identified, she turned out to be Julia Thomas, who was somewhere in the neighborhood of 54 or 55. Dr. Bond played a role in this autopsy, but I don't recall if he was involved in this age estimate or whether it was strictly Adams.

In some of the Torso cases, the coroner directed the jury to deliver a verdict of wilful murder despite there being no evidence to substantiate this, in other cases found dead was the verdict, so to categorically state that the victims were murdered is a step too far in my opinion.

It is suggested by some researchers that the victims were murdered and then dismembered would a killer go to these lengths? Personally, I doubt that, if the victims were murdered that's a lot of trouble to go to dispose of the body when there are many other ways of disposing of a body without the need to dismember it.

As to the dismembering as has been stated there is a suggestion that the victims could have died as a result of some back street medical procedure that could have occurred during a procedure or following such a procedure. If that were the case then clearly the abortionist would need to dispose of all the evidence and distance themselves from the illegal procedure, so dismembering would be an easy option. But I am sure these abortionists were aware of the illegal trade in body parts involving body dealers and the prices being paid for body parts and this is why in my opinion we see evidence of vital organs missing from some of the bodies.

I have mentioned all the heads missing from the torsos, some may say that was to hide their identity but again why would a killer go to that trouble? a more simple explanation is that the heads and other body parts were sold to body dealers.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Debra A]

To clarify, I was only responding to the question "Would a woman dress up to have an abortion?" but wasn't really insisting the Whitehall case falls into that category-only that it could have. There is no forensic evidence to guide us to whether this was a domestic murder, an abortion case, or something else.

The examples I was thinking of happened in the United States. In one case, a woman from another state traveled to the Big City (New York) to have the 'procedure,' and died as a result. She wasn't taken to a hospital, nor did she return home; she died in secrecy and her body was stuffed into a trunk and taken to the train depot. There were two similar cases in Michigan where two women found in the river were traced to the same brothel, where they had been operated on by the same abortionist, and their bodies dumped after they died. It wouldn't be a great leap to instead cut up a body and bury it, so I can't entirely dismiss the idea.

Concerning the torso victims all being 'young women,' this could be true, but I remember in the Kate Webster case Dr. Adams estimated the victim's age between 19-30, but when the victim was finally conclusively identified, she turned out to be Julia Thomas, who was somewhere in the neighborhood of 54 or 55. Dr. Bond played a role in this autopsy, but I don't recall if he was involved in this age estimate or whether it was strictly Adams.

The cases you mention would be interesting as a study.

[rjpalmer]

This is also a scenario that I have considered many times but in most of the many cases of death after an abortion that I have read about, the women died from peritonitis or similar infections and days after they had travelled back home again, their friends and family none the wiser as to where they had been until they became ill and died. An 'illegal operation' did not involve surgery so the risks of immediate death would be pretty slim I would have thought, unless it was from severe immediate blood loss or poisoning.

To clarify, I was only responding to the question "Would a woman dress up to have an abortion?" but wasn't really insisting the Whitehall case falls into that category-only that it could have. There is no forensic evidence to guide us to whether this was a domestic murder, an abortion case, or something else.

The examples I was thinking of happened in the United States. In one case, a woman from another state traveled to the Big City (New York) to have the 'procedure,' and died as a result. She wasn't taken to a hospital, nor did she return home; she died in secrecy and her body was stuffed into a trunk and taken to the train depot. There were two similar cases in Michigan where two women found in the river were traced to the same brothel, where they had been operated on by the same abortionist, and their bodies dumped after they died. It wouldn't be a great leap to instead cut up a body and bury it, so I can't entirely dismiss the idea.

Concerning the torso victims all being 'young women,' this could be true, but I remember in the Kate Webster case Dr. Adams estimated the victim's age between 19-30, but when the victim was finally conclusively identified, she turned out to be Julia Thomas, who was somewhere in the neighborhood of 54 or 55. Dr. Bond played a role in this autopsy, but I don't recall if he was involved in this age estimate or whether it was strictly Adams.