Torsoman vs The Ripper

[Debra A]

Robert...you have saved me so much repetitive typing ...and you can spell Hebbert!

[Trevor Marriott]

i rule out "botched abortion". Dr. Hebbert determined that the 1887 victim had recently menstruated; services of an abortionist obviously unrequired. {And, with observations such as prominent rugae, absence of linae albae & unruptured fourchette, I'd shade that the doctor was actively looking for fatal mishaps from childbirth, child-bearing, and (possibly) abortion.}

Are you medical expert to be able to give an opinion on medical topics, and I think your facts are wrong on this torso the nquest testimony does not show what you describe. "Decomposition had taken place in water and some months had elapsed since death"


the aspect of dismemberment, & disposal is a strong indicator of foul-play. the serial frequency of the torso victims (3 or 4 women in two years) intensifies the aspect of foul-play. so, i feel comfortable if i underline MURDER as the most likely cause of death.

That is just your opinion which you are entitled to give

it doesn't appear that any of the women were poisoned. those women whose entire torsos were found... well now, there didn't seem to be any evidence of physical harm or destruction to their body that may have caused their death. And, in the cases where a majority of the vital organs were found... again, there wasn't the appearance of puncture wounds, stab wounds, or any other types of piercings that may have caused their death. also, there was no evidence of clot in the heart to suggest strangulation.

that only leaves some fatal injury caused to the head or the neck. ;

and that cannot be proved or disproved without the heads, and in the absence of being able to prove a cause of death it is wrong to draw such an inference of murder when there is another alternative

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Robert St Devil]

So where are the causes of death to be able to conclude murder, there was no evidence produced at any of the coroner's court hearings to prove murder, and in some cases, a verdict of simply found dead was brought in. If you are going to postulate murder then you have to have not only a motive but a cause of death.

You need to read up on the activities of body dealers in 1888

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

when you hear hoof beats, think horses, not zebras

i will consider your theory, trevor, as i find that your contrarian postulations can cause an argumentative person to reassess "the facts", which can be incidentally enlightening.

as for cause of death...
i instantly rule out natural causes. these victims were young women (aged 25 to 40) with strong bodies and healthy organs; highly doubtful that they met their fate at the hands of advanced age or biological causes.

i rule out "botched abortion". Dr. Hebbert determined that the 1887 victim had recently menstruated; services of an abortionist obviously unrequired. {And, with observations such as prominent rugae, absence of linae albae & unruptured fourchette, I'd shade that the doctor was actively looking for fatal mishaps from childbirth, child-bearing, and (possibly) abortion.}

the aspect of dismemberment, & disposal is a strong indicator of foul-play. the serial frequency of the torso victims (3 or 4 women in two years) intensifies the aspect of foul-play. so, i feel comfortable if i underline MURDER as the most likely cause of death.

it doesn't appear that any of the women were poisoned. those women whose entire torsos were found... well now, there didn't seem to be any evidence of physical harm or destruction to their body that may have caused their death. And, in the cases where a majority of the vital organs were found... again, there wasn't the appearance of puncture wounds, stab wounds, or any other types of piercings that may have caused their death. also, there was no evidence of clot in the heart to suggest strangulation.

that only leaves some fatal injury caused to the head or the neck.

as for motive...
I have the candlestick; i have the conservatory; but, without knowing if the murderer is Colonel Mustard or Professor Plum, there's not much that I can offer up in the way of a motive. However, in years, I have become rather base about motive because: 1) there's no one left to confess to it; and, 2) in the 150 years of these serial cases, has there ever been a confessed motive that was satisfying to anyone... other than a psychologist?

[John Wheat]

hi john
tabram and i beleive one or two more i cant remember, and im on vaca and dont have access to all my stuff. but i beleive stride had bruising to her shoulder too.

Okay fair enough thanks Abby.

[Abby Normal]

What evidence is there that there is blunt force trauma in the Ripper victims deaths?

hi john
tabram and i beleive one or two more i cant remember, and im on vaca and dont have access to all my stuff. but i beleive stride had bruising to her shoulder too.

[John Wheat]

yes. good post robert. and i agree, i think the torsos probably killed by cut throat and or blunt force trauma to the head. and the rippers victims all died more than likely by strangulation and cut throat, bit there is also evidence to include blunt force trauma in tje rippers victims. there is nothing to preclude that the two series victims were all killed in basically the same way.

What evidence is there that there is blunt force trauma in the Ripper victims deaths?

[Abby Normal]

In An Exercise in Forensic Medicine , Dr. Hebbert went as far as to conclude that her uterus (Rainham) "was that of a virgin"

marhaba debs and all

in the 4 torso cases, i put minimal to no weight into death caused by 'botched abortion'. Including the Pinchin case, the drs. had the female sex organs of 3 of the four women; and, there was nothing evident to the drs. to indicate a forced rupture or (with the exception of Elizabeth Jackson) recent impregnation.

i lean towards murder because every other consideration (at this point) seems too far-fetched to consider, which begs the question of the manner of murder. the doctors seemingly rule out drowning (no water in the lungs); in the cases where a complete torso was located, there aren't any fatal injuries to the trunk, such as stabbing; and, based on the condition of the heart, I doubt that she was strangled. In the Pinchin case, Dr. Hebbert concludes that "the immediate cause of death was syncope as shown by the condition of the heart, and the general bloodlessness of the tissues would indicate hemorhhage..."

...so that only leaves a fatal attack on her neck or her head. lately I am entertaining the suggestion that she may have suffered death by some type of blunt force trauma to her skull, such as being struck by a heavy object or gunshot.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
as for noticing similarities to the Ripper murders:

1. there's the removal of the intestines
2. there's indication of removal of a "wedding ring"
3. there's indication of cutting around the umbilicus
4. there's an incision running from below the ensiform cartilage to the genitalia
5. in addition, there's a macabre focus on the organs

yes. good post robert. and i agree, i think the torsos probably killed by cut throat and or blunt force trauma to the head. and the rippers victims all died more than likely by strangulation and cut throat, bit there is also evidence to include blunt force trauma in tje rippers victims. there is nothing to preclude that the two series victims were all killed in basically the same way.

[FISHY1118]

I don't need to respond to your misguided post there is only one of us that is right and it's not you and I will leave it at that

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Only in your world ,not this one im afraid.

[Trevor Marriott]

Personal attacks will only get you banned, just like herlock . But hey, keep going you could use the break .

Judging by your lack of a relevant response, ill take that as I was right and you've been wasting everyone's time with your silly theory..

I don't need to respond to your misguided post there is only one of us that is right and it's not you and I will leave it at that

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[FISHY1118]

It is also clear from your replies that your medication is not working

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Personal attacks will only get you banned, just like herlock . But hey, keep going you could use the break .

Judging by your lack of a relevant response, ill take that as I was right and you've been wasting everyone's time with your silly theory..

[Trevor Marriott]

Oh yeah funny as, im just rolling on the floor with your wit .

Just for the record tho ,the Body Dealers story is just another made up theory by you . There is no evidence whatsoever that Organ Harvesting and/or body part swapping had it has anything to do with the Ripper Murders.

Its as fake and stupid a theory as is the Maybrick Diary and Druitt Nonsense , way too much time and effort has been wasted on all 3 . Pleaseeeeee people, lets have something new, or stop rehashing topics that have been easily shown to be disproven and dead ends ,and no help solving the Ripper murders .

It is also clear from your replies that your medication is not working

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[FISHY1118]

Well no use you obtaining copies because there are no pictures only writing

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Oh yeah funny as, im just rolling on the floor with your wit .

Just for the record tho ,the Body Dealers story is just another made up theory by you . There is no evidence whatsoever that Organ Harvesting and/or body part swapping had it has anything to do with the Ripper Murders.

Its as fake and stupid a theory as is the Maybrick Diary and Druitt Nonsense , way too much time and effort has been wasted on all 3 . Pleaseeeeee people, lets have something new, or stop rehashing topics that have been easily shown to be disproven and dead ends ,and no help solving the Ripper murders .

[Trevor Marriott]

No he doesn't.

Well no use you obtaining copies because there are no pictures only writing

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[FISHY1118]

No he doesn't.

[Trevor Marriott]

Not so much focusing on her sexual tendency or proclivity, rj, simply trying to illustrate that she wasn't a woman who might be in a condition at the time of her death whereby she might be considering an abortion.

since none of the local mortuaries were contracting out "dismemberment & disposal of the recently departed" services to half-rated dimwits, that only leaves murder as the likely cause behind these women's death

So where are the causes of death to be able to conclude murder, there was no evidence produced at any of the coroner's court hearings to prove murder, and in some cases, a verdict of simply found dead was brought in. If you are going to postulate murder then you have to have not only a motive but a cause of death.

You need to read up on the activities of body dealers in 1888

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk