Torsoman vs The Ripper

[FrankO]

To which I'd add... The Torso Killer(s) almost certainly had a "home" where they could kill and cut their victims up more easily. The Ripper did not have such luxury, but operated in public places, in someone else's backyard, and a rented room in a shared house.

Or, somewhat differently put … The Torso Killer saw to it that he had all the time he wanted with his victims without having to worry about being caught in the act. Clearly, the Torso killer bothered to see to it. The Ripper’s MO, on the other hand, provided the Ripper with minimal mutilating time with his victims, all the while having to divide his attention between what he came for and his surroundings so that he wouldn’t get caught red-handed.

The Torso killer spread the risk he took by not doing everything in one place at one time; the Ripper, obviously, was willing to take a much greater risk by doing exactly that what the Torso killer didn’t do. Plus, of course, Torso Man also spread the risk also by murdering every once in a while and for maybe as many as 16 years, whilst the Ripper struck about as many times in only a few months or at best in less than 1 year.

[Abby Normal]

This is also a scenario that I have considered many times but in most of the many cases of death after an abortion that I have read about, the women died from peritonitis or similar infections and days after they had travelled back home again, their friends and family none the wiser as to where they had been until they became ill and died. An 'illegal operation' did not involve surgery so the risks of immediate death would be pretty slim I would have thought, unless it was from severe immediate blood loss or poisoning.

To have three women of a similar age found dismembered (the trunk disected in to three in two of the cases which is apparently unusual in dismemberment cases) and their bodies disposed of in and around the same general area of Chelsea Reach within a couple of years of each other 1887-1889 is a rare occurence. I have never seen any similar 'cluster' of these cases documented anywhere else and I haven't seen anyone else report any. There seems to be a link between three of them, yet it cannot be abortion related as one of the women definitely was not pregnant (Rainham) I don't include Pinchin in the similar cases.
Dr Bond was involved with the Dr Gloster abortion trial in the death of Eliza Schumaker in 1888 ( he presented her damaged uterus to the Westminster Hospital Pathological Museum that Dr Hebbert was curator of at the time.) and other similar cases and as far as is documented, Bond finally concluded against death from an 'illegal operation' in the case of Elizabeth Jackson after first suspecting that was the case as reported in the press, based probably on the fact that Elizabeth's damaged uterus, placenta and abdominal flaps were found alone in the first parcel found at Horsleydown.

hi Debs!
good to see you here again! your expertise and knowledge in this area is much appreciated!

[Debra A]

I've read that some of these clandestine 'lying in' hospitals were quite posh. She dresses up like she's going out of town for a few days, so as not to arouse the suspicions of her snooping landlady, but travels to London and checks into a 'clinic.' The abortion is botched, and she ends up under Whitehall.

I'm not insisting that that is what happened, but with the uterus and pelvic area missing, it might be worth considering.

The question I keep asking myself, in defiance of this theory, is where is the missing person report?

This is also a scenario that I have considered many times but in most of the many cases of death after an abortion that I have read about, the women died from peritonitis or similar infections and days after they had travelled back home again, their friends and family none the wiser as to where they had been until they became ill and died. An 'illegal operation' did not involve surgery so the risks of immediate death would be pretty slim I would have thought, unless it was from severe immediate blood loss or poisoning.

To have three women of a similar age found dismembered (the trunk disected in to three in two of the cases which is apparently unusual in dismemberment cases) and their bodies disposed of in and around the same general area of Chelsea Reach within a couple of years of each other 1887-1889 is a rare occurence. I have never seen any similar 'cluster' of these cases documented anywhere else and I haven't seen anyone else report any. There seems to be a link between three of them, yet it cannot be abortion related as one of the women definitely was not pregnant (Rainham) I don't include Pinchin in the similar cases.
Dr Bond was involved with the Dr Gloster abortion trial in the death of Eliza Schumaker in 1888 ( he presented her damaged uterus to the Westminster Hospital Pathological Museum that Dr Hebbert was curator of at the time.) and other similar cases and as far as is documented, Bond finally concluded against death from an 'illegal operation' in the case of Elizabeth Jackson after first suspecting that was the case as reported in the press, based probably on the fact that Elizabeth's damaged uterus, placenta and abdominal flaps were found alone in the first parcel found at Horsleydown.

[Debra A]

Thanks Abby!

The conundrum for me, is the timings Dr. Hibbert and Bond give for the Whitehall victims death. Personally, I feel from all that we know, the Whitehall victim met her death on or about September 8th or 9th. But, that would contradict their findings to a degree. Dr. Neville, who examined the first body part at Pimlico (arm), was a qualified Police Divisional Surgeon just like Bond. He felt the arm had come from a body that would have been deceased about September 8th. On about September 16th, Dr. Hibbert examined the arm and came to a different conclusion from Dr. Neville.

I don't know if I'm making a big deal out of this or not, but, I think it's beyond coincidence that both Annie Chapman and the Pinchin torso were both murdered/determined to have died on that date. The Pinchin torso victim a year later, of course.

Hi Jerry,
I think Dr Hebbert's lectures are a bit ambiguous on the dates of finding the arm, time in the water etc. . He writes that the arm was probably in the water for two to three weeks and gives the date of finding as the 16th September but later goes on to say that the trunk was found in the vault a'a couple of days later' but we know that was found on the 2nd October.

[Abby Normal]

Jack the Ripper was a lust killer, the torso killer was... well a torso killer. Two very different beasts psychologically as well as different mo's and signatures. The fact a torso was found in Whitechapel after the jack the ripper murders started actually makes me confident that I very much doubt they were the same murderer.

hi Garza
I hear ya! its my main issue with them being the same person too. on the face of it, it does seem like two totally different serial killers, despite all tje similarities. One is mainly and eviscerator and one is mainly a dismemberer.

But what if the main difference is based on the single killers circs? as in, the torso murders were when he had a chop shop available, and tje ripper killings were when he didnt and was forced to kill on the streets? it would explain alot, including, of course, the similarities.

[Garza]

Jack the Ripper was a lust killer, the torso killer was... well a torso killer. Two very different beasts psychologically as well as different mo's and signatures. The fact a torso was found in Whitechapel after the jack the ripper murders started actually makes me confident that I very much doubt they were the same murderer.

[Abby Normal]

I will say this though, the Pinchin Street torso was placed on land that was owned by the Board of Works and used for stone breaking. The Whitehall Police Offices were being built under the guidance of the Board of Works who oversaw its construction. The origination of several of the torso victims body parts (mainly Rainham and Elizabeth Jackson) were thought to be from or near the Albert Bridge. There was a stone yard in Battersea Park at the corner that butted up to Albert Bridge and the Thames. Battersea Park was managed by the Board of Works. I have also shown on a thread on this forum, locations of many of the Board of Works offices/land and their location to Ripper victims. Lusk was a vestryman for the Board of Works as well as a builder. So, a lot of connection to the BoW in both cases, in my opinion. Something I continue to look at with a close eye.

hi Jerry
i think you may me on to something. theres does seem to be a lot of connections to the BoW.

especially intriguing is lusks connection and he received the kidney. was a worker pissed at him?

[jerryd]

I will say this though, the Pinchin Street torso was placed on land that was owned by the Board of Works and used for stone breaking. The Whitehall Police Offices were being built under the guidance of the Board of Works who oversaw its construction. The origination of several of the torso victims body parts (mainly Rainham and Elizabeth Jackson) were thought to be from or near the Albert Bridge. There was a stone yard in Battersea Park at the corner that butted up to Albert Bridge and the Thames. Battersea Park was managed by the Board of Works. I have also shown on a thread on this forum, locations of many of the Board of Works offices/land and their location to Ripper victims. Lusk was a vestryman for the Board of Works as well as a builder. So, a lot of connection to the BoW in both cases, in my opinion. Something I continue to look at with a close eye.

[jerryd]

hi jerry
if the chapman, pinchin and whitehall were all murdered on the same date, then yes i beleive it would be beyond coincidence too! Does Sept 8 or 9 have any special significance for any suspects we know? say the date of Mr. Wildbore's birthday or the date of his mothers death for example?

Hi Abby.

No. Not that I am aware.

[Abby Normal]

Thanks Abby!

The conundrum for me, is the timings Dr. Hibbert and Bond give for the Whitehall victims death. Personally, I feel from all that we know, the Whitehall victim met her death on or about September 8th or 9th. But, that would contradict their findings to a degree. Dr. Neville, who examined the first body part at Pimlico (arm), was a qualified Police Divisional Surgeon just like Bond. He felt the arm had come from a body that would have been deceased about September 8th. On about September 16th, Dr. Hibbert examined the arm and came to a different conclusion from Dr. Neville.

I don't know if I'm making a big deal out of this or not, but, I think it's beyond coincidence that both Annie Chapman and the Pinchin torso were both murdered/determined to have died on that date. The Pinchin torso victim a year later, of course.

hi jerry
if the chapman, pinchin and whitehall were all murdered on the same date, then yes i beleive it would be beyond coincidence too! Does Sept 8 or 9 have any special significance for any suspects we know? say the date of Mr. Wildbore's birthday or the date of his mothers death for example?

[rjpalmer]

exactly Jerry
and would the "DR" after the botched abortion have the know how and or take the risk/trouble to haul her torso/parts/clothes into the almost inaccessable far reaches of an underground vault of the newly being built police building?!? I think not.

The penalty for killing a woman during an 'illegal operation' was severe in the 19the Century, up to an including the death penalty. So he pays someone handsomely to help get rid of the body.

It's not far-fetched. There are many cases in the 19th Century of abortion victims ending up in the river or in trunk at a distant railway station. So why not at a building site?

And the fact that the victim could have been pregnant (the uterus and pelvis missing) doesn't mean it was a botched abortion case. Someone could have murdered their pregnant mistress. Removing the 'evidence' would complicate a police inquiry.

[jerryd]

I've read that some of these clandestine 'lying in' hospitals were quite posh. She dresses up like she's going out of town for a few days, so as not to arouse the suspicions of her snooping landlady, but travels to London and checks into a 'clinic.' The abortion is botched, and she ends up under Whitehall.

I'm not insisting that that is what happened, but with the uterus and pelvic area missing, it might be worth considering.

The question I keep asking myself, in defiance of this theory, is where is the missing person report?

Searching the newspapers under "missing persons" is how I found this one. Unfortunately, there wasn't any follow up to this that I could find.

Lloyd's Weekly, August 21st, 1887 (referring to Rainham torso)

[Abby Normal]

I guess anything is possible R.J, but would a woman get dressed up in a nice outfit complete with dress improver to go to have an abortion? And to add to that, would the abortionist take her clothing off at his "medical room" (for lack of words), dispose of her body parts in the soon to be Police Offices and gather up and bring her clothing to the site and scatter them about the place where he dumped her?

exactly Jerry
and would the "DR" after the botched abortion have the know how and or take the risk/trouble to haul her torso/parts/clothes into the almost inaccessable far reaches of an underground vault of the newly being built police building?!? I think not.

[rjpalmer]

I guess anything is possible R.J, but would a woman get dressed up in a nice outfit complete with dress improver to go to have an abortion?

I've read that some of these clandestine 'lying in' hospitals were quite posh. She dresses up like she's going out of town for a few days, so as not to arouse the suspicions of her snooping landlady, but travels to London and checks into a 'clinic.' The abortion is botched, and she ends up under Whitehall.

I'm not insisting that that is what happened, but with the uterus and pelvic area missing, it might be worth considering.

The question I keep asking myself, in defiance of this theory, is where is the missing person report?

[jerryd]

The Whitehall victim may have been. The uterus and pelvis were missing.

I guess anything is possible R.J, but would a woman get dressed up in a nice outfit complete with dress improver to go to have an abortion? And to add to that, would the abortionist take her clothing off at his "medical room" (for lack of words), dispose of her body parts in the soon to be Police Offices and gather up and bring her clothing to the site and scatter them about the place where he dumped her?